podcasts

Why Web 3 Needs Privacy by Default, with Tor Bair of Secret Network

podcasts

Why Web 3 Needs Privacy by Default, with Tor Bair of Secret Network

October 2020

Posted by

Roland Spencer

Creative Producer

To Celebrate our 50th Episode, we enjoy a joint podcast with Tor Bair, Founder of The Secret Network, and host of Sharing Secrets Podcast, where we first explore why privacy is important to both citizens and institutions in Web 3, and in particular DeFi, and how ‘Programmable Privacy’ is now possible across blockchains for both data and computation through ‘secret contracts’.

The second part sees Tor interview Jamie on how Outlier Ventures has evolved over the last 7+ years and his learnings investing in Web 3 – coming to the Sharing Secrets Podcast soon: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/sharing-secrets-presented-by-secret-network/id1438776388

To Celebrate our 50th Episode, join us at https://superrare.co/spongenuity as we auction off unique NFTs of the Top 10 most popular FOW3 guests, raising money for Computer Aid International!

Posted by Roland Spencer - October 2020

October 2020

Posted by

Roland Spencer

Creative Producer

Listen on iTunes

Jamie Burke 0:13
You’re an early stage web three founder apply to our award winning accelerator programme base camp at Outlier ventures.io slash base camp, we write your first $50,000 check and give you access to 200 mentors, including many of the leading web three founders, and a network of 1000 of the world’s leading investors and exchanges. We’ve helped over 30 startups from 15 countries from all around the world, raise 100 and $30 million in growth funding, I can help you fast track product market fit and where relevant the launch of your token economy. Today, I’m really happy to welcome founder of secret foundation Tor bear.

Tor Bair 0:54
Welcome to thank you, Jamie. It’s great to be here. So today,

Jamie Burke 0:57
we’ve got a slightly unusual format, in that you’ve been trying to get me on your podcast, I’ve been trying to get you on this one. And so we decided to meet in the middle. So we’re going to record a founders of web three podcast first 30 minutes, and then we’re going to hand over to you where you’re going to interview me. So no idea how that’s gonna go. But I what I do know is that whenever short things to talk about, so we should be good.

Tor Bair 1:26
Yeah, I am not worried about conversation. I’m only worried about how I’m going to look in comparison to you.

Jamie Burke 1:34
Oh, yeah, that’s I think we know that is false modesty there. But I’m going to take it, I’m going to take it. So secret foundation secret foundation is an organisation dedicated to building researching and scaling adoption of open source privacy first technologies for public good. The Secret network is a privacy preserving smart contracting platform that enables the use of synthetic assets such as eath as privacy tokens. Secret network is the first blockchain with privacy preserving smart contracts, actually the first tenement based network to introduce smart contracts on Main net. And this allows you to build secret apps that can utilise encrypted data without revealing it to anyone, even the nodes in the network. Now, there’s several reasons why I wanted you on my show. Firstly, we have had the pleasure to work together in the context of both Enigma and the secret foundation. And we’ll talk about that a little bit later. But also, the more I’ve got to know the subject of privacy, as a byproduct of engaging with you, and the secret network and Enigma, there are a lot of misconceptions about privacy that I want to try to address. And, you know, whilst we are a backer of the secret network, there are some things I’m still not even sure where I sit. So again, it’s gonna be interesting to play some of these things out. Of course, there’s also this debate that blockchains are today public, by default, it’s not really a debate, it’s a fact. And so that means that all the data used in smart contracts is exposed to everybody by design. And you make a really good point, which is, unless you solve for privacy, you can’t have a true web three, or at least, is still under threat from being hijacked by surveillance, capitalism and corporations and governments. Of course, as I was looking at background, one of the things that I didn’t know about you was that as a data scientist, you also spent some time inside the beast, so to speak, at snap, Inc. So you probably have a better understanding of surveillance capitalism from the inside, at least more than most. And as I’ve been developing our kind of latest theory, thesis for DeFi 2.0, which you’ve been kind enough to help with this idea that for DeFi, to scale, let alone Crypto, there needs to be more confidentiality solutions. If we want to bring in institutions, they’re just not going to accept all of that data and the data around transactions to be to be out there in the public. And I know this is something you you also feel very passionate about. So by way of origin story, I’m going to keep it a little bit more condensed than normal, just because we’re gonna have to share time. But effectively, you did a Bachelor’s in economics at Brown University, graduating in 2009. You studied at MIT and did a Master of Business Administration graduating in 2016. Didn’t know this, you’re actually an options trader. Creating and managed cross asset volatility arbitrage desk, and then you did an intern actually, two places right one was at Spotify. And another one was at HubSpot labs. And this was around data driven strategies. And one of the interesting things there was the the work at HubSpot was for inbound.org their community. And so you were understanding, I guess, engagement KPIs for community built data driven strategies for onboarding, retaining and recovery of users, which I imagine is going to be very relevant for what you’re doing now. The Secret network?

Tor Bair 5:31
Yes, man, this feels a little bit like I have, like, I’ve died. And I’ve gone to the pearly gates. And they’re reading back sort of all of my accomplishments or lack thereof. And I, I know you’re not judging me for it. But it’s just so interesting until you hear somebody else kind of put it all out there. It’s like, you start to realise there is a consistent narrative for, for how things have gone, at least in your career. And what you have to remember is that like, wherever I am now, in the blockchain space, for most of my career, the blockchain space did not exist. So there was no way I could know that where I am now is where I was ending up.

Jamie Burke 6:06
That’s right. And so you know, as we stand at these gates, and we look at your sins, as I said, he did, he did spend a year at snapping as a data scientist. So it’d be good to understand a little bit about what you were doing there and how what you’re exposed to informed perhaps this appreciation for privacy.

Tor Bair 6:24
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I would say that my appreciation for the challenges with data privacy started long before I even arrived at Snapchat. Because when I was at MIT and doing my MBA, that’s when I first met the two co founders of Enigma guy and john, we were all there at the same time. And a lot of my studies at the time did revolve around blockchain. Because MIT had just started out a lot of their programme around blockchain. The very first course taught at MIT focused on blockchain, I took I won’t say that I did very well. But I was definitely fascinated by it. And I did some independent studies around like the use of blockchain for digital rights management in the music industry. My opinion on like data, and data privacy has evolved massively over time, because originally, I thought the problem was, we didn’t have enough data or data fluency. We didn’t know how to use data or understand data, I still believe that that is a massive problem. As a society, we’re not really well set up to understand insights from data, we are very well set up to collect as much of it as possible, we can create massive surveillance structures and corporate monopolies that are based on the collection and monetization of user data. We’re very good at that. We can’t really tell you what the data means all of the time. We can’t use the data to create fairer, more equitable, more democratic, more empowering societies, we haven’t really proven that we’ve been able to do that. And we certainly haven’t proven that we’re able to protect people and protect the data as we’re using it, to create whatever products end up being made being scaled. So working with it within the beast, as you say, when I was at Snapchat, I was on primarily the revenue analytics side, and the revenue analytics team at a company like Snapchat, Facebook, etc. Where all of your revenue comes from advertising is all about how are you optimising the product to get people to actually interact with the ads? How are you serving the ads so that they’re the most engaging ad possible? you’re serving it to the right person at the right time under the right circumstances. Like, that’s your job. It’s not terribly inspiring, if you think about it, and you take a step back and you’re like, Okay, what do I do again, so Oh, I I make people distract themselves, but then I distract them from their distraction with a worst distraction that made somebody else money. And at a certain point you that stops being particularly inspiring. I ended up at Snapchat because I was very passionate about something else you noted, which is community and creation, and the sharing and of content and the democratisation of content creation. And Snapchat was a platform still as a platform that has democratised content creation. It’s not the only platform that has. But you also, once you’re a company have to monetize the act of content creation. And there’s always been a cognitive dissonance. I think with Snapchat, where you’re the most engaging part of your product is people can take pictures and share them and edit them it very easily directly with the people they choose to. But the way that the app makes money is serving them ads, which have nothing to do with the act of creation. So it’s it’s just such a strange product to use and such a strange thing to build. And while I was at Snapchat, not only was I wrestling with that dissonance, I was wrestling with something else, which is that all the data that was being used internally, they didn’t know what to do with it, but they sure had a lot of it. They also didn’t know how to secure it. I don’t think that it was very well secured. I’m pretty sure I don’t know if there were like plaintext passwords or anything like that. But I can tell you that like it was way too easy for way too many people to directly access the user day that they should Not have had access to at least that was my impression that was not very well controlled. I don’t think that any organisation that deals with large amounts of data has the appropriate controls in place right now to protect users. But the fundamental thing that I want to say to you is, they’re not incentivized to, nobody actually bears the cost. It’s a negative. It’s a negative externality, companies, generally speaking, have not borne the cost of putting their users at risk by not protecting their data privacy by not protecting their own users, somebody else bears that cost. It’s usually the user only after the fact and only very recently have companies been held accountable for these failures in particular, like Facebook, Equifax, etc. But they’re still not like accountable in the sense that somebody went to jail. It’s just become a cost of doing business. Failing your users is a cost of doing business for these companies. And it’s just so it’s so distasteful, so distasteful, in fact that now I full time work with secret foundation work on secret network, trying to create a better alternative, where the way that data is handled is protected, is not in the hands of corporations anymore. You’re not you’re not leaving that trust with Facebook, or Equifax companies that have routinely jeopardise that trust and exploited it willingly and knowingly knowing the consequences. So we’re trying to create a new paradigm here, we’re only just in the early steps along the way. But I, I definitely have an easier time sleeping, at least from that regard that what I’m building is, is better than what I was building before.

Jamie Burke 11:26
Yeah, and it’s really interesting, you know, you see the brain trust of people entering the space. And you know, where previously, the dream for anybody aspiring to work in tech was to go and work at Facebook or Google, I think that’s very quickly changing to come and work in web three. And you’re a great, great example of that. So 2017, you moved over to Enigma, and you worked there for three years as head of growth and marketing. And that was with a guy, I presume you met him at MIT, right?

Tor Bair 11:56
Oh, yes, guy was one of the instructors of that course that

Jamie Burke 11:58
I mentioned. And you clearly must have paid enough attention to follow up with him when Enigma was launched.

Tor Bair 12:06
Yeah, I mean, I had stayed in touch with. Also john, who was my classmate in the MBA programme guy was a researcher at the Media Lab. And most of what I did during my MBA, was finding as many excuses as possible to not attend my lectures and to actually just hang out in the Media Lab. Because anybody who’s familiar with the MIT Media Lab knows that’s where the actual future is being built. And anybody who’s familiar with an MBA programme knows, that’s where you go, if you want to learn how to be a rent seeker after the fact, after the cool stuff has been built, not as interesting to me. But you know, being an MBA student was sort of a good way to get my foot in the door on where the magic really was happening. So I stayed in touch with john through our programme, and he was building out Enigma with guy who I knew from taking the course. And when the opportunity came to join Enigma full time, and to bring some of guys ideas around decentralised privacy solutions to scale. And especially when they told me there’s the opportunity to work hands on with the community in that capacity. It seemed to be just like a really outstanding fit and a once in a lifetime opportunity.

Jamie Burke 13:09
Well, clearly, it worked out for both sides. So during that time, you’d also have an advisor beemster, lotta some of these proof of stake Alliance, neither I who we’ve had on the show, previously open finance network. And then in 2020, this year, the secret Foundation was formed. You are its its founder, it’d be good to understand, you know, this, this journey, this transition from enigma. Two secret and you know, why you Why, why? Why were you the founder? Was it community appointed? Did he kind of just stand up? Nobody else wanted to do it?

Tor Bair 13:47
That’s a great question. And for people who are not as familiar with our ecosystem, you know, a lot of this is complex. So it takes a bit to understand. But where we were before, is that Enigma, as an organisation was very responsible for the ecosystem surrounding the technology and surrounding the project. With secret network that is no longer the case to any degree secret network is now supported by over 35 main net validators. We’ve got dozens of people building applications for the network or tooling for the network building wallets support for the network. The way to think about secret network is is like aetherium. It’s now this public good that a bunch of independent entities are contributing to so when I was with a nygma, and the focus was like, it’s sort of an enigma centric ecosystem. You need a head of growth, you need a head of marketing, to help grow the product to help grow the ecosystem. Most companies, regular companies have a head of growth, have a head of marketing that helps do communications that helps steward the growth of product adoption, so on and so forth, but with a decentralised ecosystem, like secret network, that’s that’s not really the Same need. Honestly, what you need is an ecosystem is an entity like a foundation that can help to steward community participants, engage them provide education around the network. We realised very quickly that, you know, even though we had dozens of independent organisations supporting secret network, it was hard to figure out what the source of truth around that network should be. And the analogy that I often use is like, pick your favourite sport, right? But the NFL, you’ve got all these independent football teams, playing in stadiums all over the country, it really helps to have the NFL, it really helps to have sort of this commissioner’s office, that is a steward for the global growth of the game that helps people understand like how to play football that keeps the funnel of players alive, and gets people into the stands and things like that. So that these teams can coordinate these teams that are literally competitive with each other. But still, there’s public goods that must be created for those teams. So that was the vision behind the foundation. It’s very different in terms of that responsibility than what I was doing internally at enigma. But what the ecosystem needed, what the network needed, what the product needed, was a foundation was this sort of external stewardship, not internal stewardship, like marketing for one of the many contributors to secret that work that doesn’t benefit the network that only benefits enigma. So now Enigma can focus on doing what it does, which is building amazing privacy solutions. other entities in our ecosystem, including Outlier can focus on what they do best for the network. And the foundation focuses on what it does best, which is helping amplify the impact of every single entity in our ecosystem, helping them collaborate helping them create lasting value. All going back to our core mission, which you stated up at the top of the show. Global adoption of privacy, first open source technologies like secret network, that’s our charge. That’s what I’m here to do.

Jamie Burke 16:57
Yeah, and I remember when I got the call from you, I think it was over over a weekend period. And you You said that you were going to be standing on the network, and you were going to be leading that initiative. And that was, I think I said to at the time, you know, that was really good news. As far as I was concerned, I think, you know, you’ve done a great job at both representing you know, what, at that time, Enigma were doing, but also building and driving community. And, you know, framing What are complex problems, simply and hopefully, I’m going to illustrate that throughout the course of this, this podcast. So let’s start at the top. What is privacy? And why is it important?

Tor Bair 17:38
Oh, boy, let’s start at the top indeed. What is privacy? I always say privacy. This is gonna bother me, I guess you

Jamie Burke 17:45
say privacy, I say privacy.

Tor Bair 17:46
I know. We’re gonna listen to this at the end. It’s so tempting to for me to say privacy every time you say privacy, but I know that I’m going to go off and say privacy right after this. So yeah, what is privacy? The way that I often describe privacy is by focusing on what it’s not. Because there are, as you said, a lot of misconceptions around privacy. So privacy is not like obfuscating everything. It’s not hiding in a dark cellar with a with a hoodie on. You know, it’s not being a black hat hacker, like all these media images of privacy, even like incognito mode, and you and you’ve got the little guy with sunglasses for Chrome or something like that. Like, there’s there’s a conception that privacy equals something to hide. And the reason that’s been hammered into us is, you know, not only by movies and media, but by the government itself. The government’s global governments are, their incentives are pretty obvious. They don’t want you to have anything to hide. They want to know absolutely everything about you, whether it’s for your own good or not, you know, we can focus on like the Patriot Act, or any other number of policy failures to that regard. But absolutely any occurrence in the world is an excuse for more surveillance by governments if they benefit or by corporations, if they benefit, you know, and the global pandemic we’ve been experiencing is no exception, you know, that that’s been a huge excuse, for overreach and for more violations of privacy. Yet somehow, when privacy enters the narrative, we’ve all been convinced that it’s actually the people who want privacy, who want the you know, to be protected, like somehow they are the the bad actors. It’s it’s such an incredible magic trick. But I really do think that that’s been pervasive. And in the last few years, it’s finally started to shift and now people have a much more humanist understanding of what privacy means, which is the messaging that I try to express. So I’ll sort of restate it here. Privacy to me is about choice, empowerment, consent, freedom, sustainability. Like I break down privacy into all of those pillars, because what privacy is about is really just that choice of what you reveal to others. And what remains private to you. Privacy is is not like I said about total obfuscation. What it is, is the ability to even say parts of my life are mine. And I’ve talked on other podcasts about the apple commercial that they just released, where it’s people going around announcing things like their heart rate and their bank account numbers, and they’re, and they’re like the last 20 websites they visited. Right? It’s clear, when you make it that visceral for people, we don’t go around announcing everything about ourselves all the time. And it’s not because we have something to hide. It’s because just, we want to be able to choose who we share that information with and who we don’t. And ultimately, there’s other actors out there, including governments and many corporations who don’t want us to have that choice. They want us to be sharing everything with them, by default. And it’s been pretty clear that governments and enterprises alike are apt to misuse that data, use it for purposes that we did not consent to. So by providing users the choice, to control their own privacy, to control what can be used in what way and how we’re allowing users not only to gain more control, and empower them, we’re also creating a world in which they can directly benefit, like monetarily, from the use of their own data, like these new data paradigms, where instead of all of this surplus, right, I was an economics major, boring, right, but like, you’ve got consumer surplus, you’ve got producer surplus, when users data is exploited, all of this surplus flows directly to the corporations or to the government’s, everything is taken from the users, ultimately, and we’re trying to restore that balance, how can users get some of that value back directly for the data that they are generating, that they’re responsible for? Their lives are being monetized? So why aren’t they seeing any of that benefit? Or why don’t they have more choice or control over the systems, that they’re interacting with the same ones that are syphoning their data? Why don’t they have more choice or control over how those systems themselves are constructed? And where web three is going? is definitely this idea of, okay, the users or the owners, it’s a totally new data data paradigm in that regard, the users are the owners. The only problem is that so far, web three has no privacy. And that’s what we’re trying to fix. Because now instead of, you know, the real world is like governments, and corporations get all your data. So the web three world has been, okay. Everything’s public, everybody gets all your data. That’s not better. Yes, we’ve created an even playing field, but it’s the wrong playing field is the playing field where everybody gets the data all the time, everything leaks. So we’re, we’re one step closer on the journey to where like privacy is respected as a public good, where we say it’s more about choice, consent, empowerment, freedom, etc. We’re not quite at the point where we’ve managed to solve any of those problems or create a better alternative. But I guess step one, is to agree that we’ve got a problem and agree that we need to fix it.

Jamie Burke 22:58
Yeah. And clearly, look, if you’ve got Apple, you know, the most valuable company on the planet, doubling down on privacy is clearly the ultimate, the ultimate good the ultimate service ultimate thing that they could deliver to command a premium as a technology company. So when you talk about the secret network, you talk about programmable privacy. And you know, this word he just mentioned before control. Could you talk us through the kind of constituent parts, the nuts and bolts of how you make programmable privacy possible? And to what extent so it’s both private transactions, but also private smart contracts, right?

Tor Bair 23:36
Yeah. Well, let’s take a second to look at other things that we call programmable because it’s a word that has been used a lot in web three. So programmable smart contracts was where we got to after Bitcoin Bitcoin was like the transfer of value decentralised transfer and storage of value. And a theorems vision that they came in with was it’s, we’re gonna take all of that, but make it programmable, programmable value. And between the ERC 20s and NF Ts, and the other, you know, hundreds of applications that have been built on top of aetherium. They’ve gotten, you know, a lot further down the line on that vision of like, programmable value. And it’s incredible. It was a huge evolution after where we started with Bitcoin, which is a huge evolution in itself. So we see secret network as really being the next huge evolution from that vision, which is, what if not only the value is programmable, but the control of how all of this data was used, was programmable. So if you think about the transfer of value, like a transaction, that’s a very trivial form of computation is just sending value from point A to point B by a sender and a receiver. If you could do privacy, not just for that transaction, but privacy for any computation, Like an arbitrarily complex computation with an arbitrarily complex privacy control over what elements of the of the computation were public and private entity, which parties, that is a massive evolution from from where we even currently are today, it’s as big it’s actually a much bigger evolution from Bitcoin to aetherium. From Ethereum to the vision of what we’ve been pursuing, with secret network. And if you were to sort of draw out the the family tree, you’ve got Bitcoin, branching into transactionally, private coin, so private transfer of value on one side, like Manero and z cash. On the other side, you have transfer value evolving into programmable transfer value with a theorem on the other side. So now we’re just sort of combining again in this in this family tree, the the privacy of Manero and z cash meeting the programmability of aetherium, to create what we call programmable privacy on secret network. And I really believe that this is the missing piece for web three, that this is what we’ve been missing to create decentralised applications that are actually better than centralised applications. for users, not not just like more permissionless, so that they’re easier to gamble with, like, I’m, that’s fun. That’s a fun vision, but it’s not a meaningful enough vision. But when you introduce privacy, and all those things, I said around empowerment, choice, etc, suddenly, I believe we’ve created something truly meaningful, something that’s going to mean something much more than a than a casino, when all is said and done. And that is that is so exciting to get up in the day to get up in the morning and work on.

Jamie Burke 26:38
So let’s bring that to life then. So you talk about data and computation. I know, to be honest, you you can’t look around on the internet right now, or anything related to web three without tripping over you, you’re kind of you seem to be everywhere, which is great. That’s your exact job. Right. But you’ve been talking a lot about the secret network in the context of DeFi. So you’ve talked about DeFi secret markets, or at least you’re about to that was one of the inputs you gave in helping me form my thesis about institutional DeFi. You’ve also talked around this kind of creation and access control. Can you bring to life some examples of how the secret network could be leveraged in the context of DeFi? And I think, especially in the context of institutional DeFi, because again, I think a lot of people think and understand privacy in the context of consumers users, rather than situations.

Tor Bair 27:31
Yeah, exactly. And again, when I talk about, like, adoption of DeFi, and things like that, and we’re talking about systems that work for individuals, as well as enterprises, you know, that’s a shared value, big privacy is a human value. So it’s no surprise when I tell you that individuals have this value. But it shouldn’t be a surprise to learn that enterprises or or large organisations have this value, because what are those, those are just collections of humans, ultimately. And humans live in things like the real world where there’s legal consequences for things like sharing sensitive healthcare data, or sharing sensitive financial data. I, there’s a reason that we have laws about the use of that data in the real world. And those laws are for deeply human reasons around like choice and consent and violations and ethics and things like that. So yes, organisations care about the same things that individuals should when it comes to defy, and privacy is one of those huge points. But it’s even more important for institutions than it is for individuals, because institutions have even more responsibility. They manage so much more data, they represent so many more individuals. And they also have like a legal responsibility to protect data and to protect individuals. whether or not those legal responsibilities are ever actually enforced is out of scope for this conversation. But in theory, they do have these very large legal responsibilities. And generally speaking, they do feel a responsibility. I like enterprises I like, I generally like capitalism overall. And I do believe that institutions and enterprises do feel a responsibility for their users. They don’t want to exploit their customers, and they’re competing with other companies that want to treat their customers better than they currently treat their customers. So when somebody goes and tries to adopt decentralised finance, they’re going to ask the question, will this help me protect my user base? Or am I doing something that’s going to put them at risk, or cause them to abandon their relationship with my enterprise, stop giving us their hard earned money, stop giving us their trust, and go work with a competitor who was better able to protect them? And I think that that’s definitely become a real threat for companies today, where if you violate the trust of your users, if there is a privacy violation, before, maybe you could have swept it under the rug, now there are fines now there’s journalists covering it, so on and so forth. So institutions who want to come to DeFi are going to demand privacy. So what Form is that going to take? I think for institutions, again, it’s not just privacy for like, Well, you know, we want to send our money from point A to point B, we just don’t want to know that we did it. That’s transactional privacy. That’s very straightforward. There’s a lot of legal constraints, even still, about how transactional privacy impacts enterprises. I think, again, more around programmable privacy. The reason enterprises are really going to like things like programmable privacy, when it comes to DeFi is that it just gives them so much more control over how the the applications themselves are being built, or how the interactions with those applications for their own purposes or are going to be. So one of the key use cases I talked about is privacy preserving, lending, for example. And privacy preserving lending on on blockchain would be like, as a user, you could provide an encrypted version of your on chain or off chain credit history. There it could be computed, and a credit score created provably So, you know, a secure correct credit score, but without at any time compromising that user’s privacy. And this can create substantially more liquid credit markets, and it could give enterprises who are potentially lending to these people who are utilising these on chain credit scores. As an enterprise, you’re now more confident about being able to to lend to these users, or maybe it gives you the ability to give under collateralized instead of over collateralized loans. So the entire space just explodes and growth. And whichever enterprise helps to catalyse the emergence of these privacy preserving lending platforms has an advantage now in capturing a large share of that consumer interest and providing a lot of that capital and they will then capture the the yield capture the upside from lending to people that will repay whatever it is that they that they’ve taken. So enterprises should be really interested in these new types of platforms that are emerging. And they should recognise that they’re only possible on networks that preserve user privacy, by design and by default, and the first ones to embrace it are going to be the winners. And I think the consumers will be winners as well.

Jamie Burke 32:13
And, you know, there’s so many other use cases that we could go into both in terms of the context of DeFi did a really interesting article recently on front running prevention for automated market makers. So people should definitely check that out. As a creative yourself. Yep. As illustrated by background, snap is Spotify, thinking about content creation music, in the context of NF T’s I know you’ve got loads of stuff there. Sadly, we are at the top of our half hour, where we need to now switch over to you. So one thing I do want to just say before we do that is Oh, so you’re also looking at interoperable privacy in the blockchain context. And so recently, you’ve just enabled a secret theory and bridge. Do you want to talk a little bit about that before we kind of close off?

Tor Bair 33:03
Yeah, the one thing I want to stress at the end of all of this is, look, all of these big words we throw around in the space like privacy, scalability, interoperability, they’re all connected. And it does us no good to provide an ecosystem like secret network. If it’s not interoperable with other ecosystems, and providing privacy to all of these other ecosystems. We’re not going to be the last blockchain ever created, we will be the most private privacy protecting blockchain ever created. That’s our hope. And that’s what we want our ecosystem to stand for. But we want to build bridges to these other ecosystems, starting with aetherium, because that’s where we already see tremendous user adoption, but not

Unknown Speaker 33:43
enough.

Tor Bair 33:45
Not enough robust solutions for privacy. And what’s interesting about our support of aetherium is because of the way secret network is built, right, it’s a layer one standalone blockchain, but it can interoperate with other blockchains and effectively become a privacy bridge between these different ecosystems. So by starting with aetherium, and supporting privacy for aetherium, and ERC 20 assets, we can simultaneously be building bridges to say, the entire cosmos ecosystem because we’re at tender mint chain IBC is coming sooner than everybody thinks. And then we become the privacy hub for the entire public blockchain ecosystem. Anything that requires privacy, in any ecosystem in any universe, even if it’s standalone, just to the secret universe, but anywhere. Our vision is for all of that computational, programmable composable privacy to flow through our network. And with secret network. There are network effects for privacy, the more things utilising our network for privacy, the more privacy every other ecosystem that leverages secret network gains. So we’re very proud to have launched the Ethereum bridge on test net, it’s coming to me extremely soon. I won’t promise a date but extremely soon, and then more bridges are following and eventually like being able to enter operate between ecosystems in a privacy centric manner via secret network that’s going to unlock so much value not just for secret network, but for every ecosystem. And hopefully, it’s also the doorway by which new individuals, new enterprises, start to enter the space start to discover what’s powerful about web three for themselves and create new value.

Jamie Burke 35:21
Great. So it’s all thanks so much for coming on the founders of web three podcast and sharing your founder journey. We’re now going to swap hats. And you’re gonna try to interview me and I’m going to try to be as interesting as you were. Let’s see how it goes.

Tor Bair 35:35
Thank you, Jamie. Let’s give it a shot.

Jamie Burke 35:39
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