Building a Web 2.5 Unicorn with Enterprise, David Rutter R3


Building a Web 2.5 Unicorn with Enterprise, David Rutter R3

April 2020

Posted by

Jamie Burke

CEO and Founder

David Rutter is CEO and Co-Founder of R3, a global blockchain consortium made up of the worlds largest financial services companies, founded in 2014, and the first to build momentum behind a ‘blockchain not bitcoin’ narrative that raised the profile of the whole industry in an enterprise context.


Posted by Jamie Burke - April 2020

April 2020

Posted by

Jamie Burke

CEO and Founder

He talks candidly about the difficult decision to open source Corda very early on, what is now becoming the de facto enterprise blockchain stack in regulated markets, and as a seasoned entrepreneur (pioneering early electronic trading systems in the 90’s) his approach to engaging incumbents and regulators when compared to competitors like Ethereum’s Consensys and what he sees as the naivety of Facebook Libra.

Key themes:

  • Building to solve real world problems
  • Achieving scale in the world of financial services
  • How the R3 consortium has evolved and grown
  • Thoughts on Libre
  • How R3 created FOMO with enterprise
  • Pragmatism as an approach to delivery
  • How R3 not only grew market share but also grew the market more broadly
  • Working with US federal governments

Listen on iTunes


Jamie: Welcome to the Founders of Web 3 series by Outlier Ventures and me your host Jamie Burke. Together we’re going to meet the entrepreneurs, that backers and the leading policymakers that are shaping Web 3. Together we’re going to try to define what is Web 3, explore its nuances and understand the mission and purpose the drive its founders. If you enjoy what you hear, please do subscribe, rate and share your feedback to help us reach as many people as possible with the important mission that is Web 3.

Great so today I’m happy to welcome David Rutter, Founder of R3 that consorted formed officially I think it says in 2015 and one of the first initiatives in the blockchain space to create real enterprise traction and momentum. And I remember, our three was coming online just as I was entering the space and setting up outlier. And every week there was announcement a new bank was coming on onboard, and it drove huge interest in the space certainly helped me when I was raising capital, and I’m sure it helped a large number for the startups. So thanks, David, for joining us.

David: Thank you for having me on.

Jamie: So as I understand it, you’re now 300 plus member organisations in both a mix of public and private and you are kind of circa 250 300. Staff now split between London, New York and some in Singapore. Is that a good summary?

David: Yeah, it’s pretty good summary. I think the headcount is around 320 at the moment, and yes, our biggest offices in London I found an American I founded the company in New York, and I moved to London about three and a half years ago. We also have a big presence in Singapore. But we have a reasonable size office in San Paulo and one in Mumbai. A couple people to three people in Sydney and spread throughout we’ve got a guy in Germany and the like, yes, we’ve kind of got a pretty good, pretty good spread. And one of the things Jamie that we had to adjust to early on was first startup, it quickly became, you know, a very global business, in part because of the interest from banks were kind of our initial investors. And we’ve moved beyond that now. But they were, you know, very globally spread. So we had to, we had to expand on that drove part of our strategy early on.

Jamie: Yeah, and I think this is one of the things I was really looking forward to having you on for because there are lots of startups in the space but there are very few scallops that have achieved meaningful scale and you guys certainly are One of them and I would argue, have achieved scale in probably some of the hardest segments, you know, dealing with the financial services sector and incumbents that can generally be slow to adopt new technology so that that kind of startup and scale up phase journey as an entrepreneur I think, is something that I really want to jump into. And as I was saying to you off air before we started the podcast, back when you could do conferences last year, I was increasingly hearing from people working in enterprise that quarter, which is the technology stack that you developed at our three and open source very early on, is becoming de facto enterprise blockchain, especially within financial services, but increasingly, you know, the use cases. And so I remember I can’t remember the exact year but I saw you and your co founder, Todd McDonald, I believes working on product now I’m out Want to guess it’s something like 2014. But I know it says you officially formed the consortium in 2015. But I’m pretty sure it was a little bit earlier and I saw you at a Bitcoin meetup in London, I think was the only one in the UK possibly Europe at the time. a roomful of about 1015 people. I remember you guys came, I believe you wearing a suit. And it was a toe odds with with with the room. And everyone looked very confused about, you know, the use case, remembering at that point to where they’re confused about. Yeah. And it was at odds with the community at that at that time, you know, that the people that were interested in this space were typically technologists, they were very libertarian, and they didn’t really have very much commercial experience. That’s certainly how I found it when I entered the space. So it was really interesting that that kind of memory really stood out and then it was it Really interesting to watch how you very quickly became to dominate headlines around around blockchain.

David: Yeah. So I mean, you’ve touched on so many things there, Jamie, I don’t really know where to start. But the Bitcoin meetup that you referred to, I believe, was the only one I ever want to I had a similar shocking experience. Around the same time doing a tour of Silicon Valley visiting a bunch of startups, I forget the private equity guy, and there’s boom, I forget exactly. But they had all these startups that were using this thing called Bitcoin and within six months, they were going to, you know, displace dtcc, and JP Morgan is going to be threatened and all this other sort of stuff. And what I found interesting was the friction or the dichotomy between the fact that a lot of these youngsters That I was meeting or very well educated Stanford, MIT, some of the best schools are that wanted to use this new technology, but really didn’t understand how the banking system worked or what dtcc did. And it was it was really, for someone that had been around for so many years, I think, you know, my roots are through Wall Street. I was in the derivatives markets, money markets and securities markets, some are registered 724 63 you know, security guy, so I understand the inner workings of those institutions very well. And it just drove me crazy. Todd was kind of much more open minded about, you know, Bitcoin and some of the other things or aetherium was, I think, just getting kinda started then and I from the very start recognising The beauty of certain attributes and the power of you know, using cryptology and distributed computer computing to solve industry problems which previously couldn’t be solved because of concerns about customer lists being exposed and my competitive edge being lost. So from the very start, I looked at this extremely differently and as you know, we cut a path, all with some brilliant minds. Richard Daniel Brown, Mike Kern, Todd myself, James Carlisle was in there early and other other folks but from the very start, when he said, you know, we wanted to solve real world problems. And even now when I listened to you know, I was moving to Singapore. The MA S has what’s called an itap International and Technology Advisory Panel and move in just joined last year. I’ve been part of it for three or four years now. And he presented as as recently as November. And I like Joe, and I admire a lot of the things he’s trying to do. But I listened to him. And there’s a substantial part of what he’s saying that just doesn’t resonate with me. I don’t understand it. And I felt very much that way, then. So we we, you know, took some risks and blazed a path that was very different than our competitors. And it’s amazing for me to hear you say what you said earlier about how we’re becoming the default for enterprise. And if that’s, that’s true, that would be incredible. We still have a lot to do, to improve to harden our platform arm to help our partners deploy apps more quickly, but I think that some of the decisions we made pretty early on were very precious and are paying dividends for us now. Then I’ll say one other thing, and I’ll stop and see what part of that because that’s openings are Jamie we could talk about for several hours, but things about like how we achieve scale on and the like. A lot of this stuff was based on the experiences that all of us had in our, in our careers. And I’ve, you know, run some a number of different companies including some electronic exchanges. So, I had both an appreciation for how powerful electronic transformation digital transformation can be, but also how difficult it is, how long it can take. And I also been involved in a number of startups as an investor and advisor and a board member. I also know the dangers of startups, which is you’re a product company until you aren’t, it’s like you know, until you don’t hit your numbers and then you offer bespoke solutions and you lose your your path and also I was very determined based on those experiences to take our three in a in a specific direction. And so far, it’s working out pretty well. And just one more comment about scale. Because we had to be global very quickly. It’s one of the reasons I moved to London. Very early on, we had projects Go on, and Singapore and Thailand and parts of eastern Europe was in Brazil. And so in order to meet that demand, I knew that we couldn’t do it. So we made this platform decision to build corta to really rely on a partner ecosystem to deploy customer applications. And, you know, a lot of those decisions and there are many more, that it really positioned us well didn’t cheat the type of growth that we’ve achieved over the last four years.

Jamie: Yeah. And I think it’s interesting, you know, when you talk about the different pathways that were presented, and that others have forged, and I know, you’ve had very strong opinions on Libras approach, and what they’ve got wrong, and I think, you know, to quote you, they’ve shown like a lack of understanding and they’ve been been naive. But I think when you look at your background, and so maybe just for the, for the sake of the listener to kind of build on some of that, you know, you’ve got a few decades in working in the implementation of technologies innovations, as you said, primarily around electronic trading. And I think you’ve referred to it as you think that blockchain could be as big as electrification was to the financial services industry. But throughout that journey, whether it’s being a CEO a division of icap, which was the world’s largest inter dealer, setup, or liquidity edge, which was a startup you founded, looking at bespoke trade building bespoke trading ecosystems. Throughout that you’ve had to engage with the financial services industry as it as it was. I know you’ve done some work in emerging markets where it’s perhaps a little bit more Greenfield, but you’ve had to engage with stakeholders including Bank of England, Bank of Japan, Feds National Bank throughout that so I guess just probably some exposure therapy, you know, you have an appreciation for the stakeholders involved in a way that people outside of this space don’t have an appreciation for. And I guess you know, for me, the big question is why you decided Now you mentioned this, this kind of partner ecosystem, but why the hell you decided to create a banking consulting for blockchain because I’ll be honest with you. That sounds like an unenviable role. And I’m sure most people on the outside probably myself included, when it first began were were sceptical that it could be pulled off now of course, it wasn’t without its its challenges throughout that process, but there were kind of two key decisions. As I said, the first one was to very early go with this, consult your approach And then the decision to pivot from if you would describe it as a pivot from procuring blockchain startups with third parties to building corder and open sourcing it. So I don’t know if you could talk us through that that process and that decision.

David: Okay, so the building of the consortium. So, you know, we decided early on that, as I mentioned, and no one articulates is better than Richard Brown, is that we want to use this technology to really solve problems at an industry level. So what do I mean by that? What I mean is that there is an incredible amount of costs, it doesn’t matter whether you’re in medical supplies or finance or whatever, I just happen to know the financial services industry very well. There’s all of these middle and back office operation. relational services that are non differentiating non proprietary don’t distinguish you, between, you know, Morgan Stanley’s you know, processing of securities or or clearing and clearing operations don’t doesn’t drive customer demand and Morgan Stanley versus Goldman Sachs, and a lot of these, a lot of these services can be the cost can be shared and serviced at an industry level. So, since since we wanted to take a different approach, it was clear to us very early on, that we wanted to, to bring in a variety of industry players. The banks, and the customers in financial services are the toughest customers out there. If you’re going to build an enterprise solution, I mean, maybe, maybe NASA and and you know, Some medical organisations have higher standards but since they deal with billions of dollars of other people’s money arm every day, the the demands are very, very high. So we knew that if we could build solutions that would pass these stringent requirements for the largest banks in the world, they would work well in other industries and we’re already seeing that. So, so we went that path as far as building a consortium with I forget 42 banks. Ultimately, our series A it’s been reported as one 107 I think was 120 million, you know, one of the largest ever, um, maybe 40, some banks involved and some other investors. I wouldn’t recommend that to anyone, you know, I’d rather probably have you rip my fingernails off then have me go through that 18 month process again. But I had, it was the fifth time I had been involved in that. So I was very careful in the way the operating agreement was crafted to give the appropriate balance and to allow us to do what we have done, which I think is underappreciated in some ways. We very accurately started as a consortium, but we are now an enterprise software company. I’m you know, I’m the largest shareholder the banks are an important part of our shareholder group, but we have have a number of other shareholders, including a large number of employees, shareholders. So it created an opportunity for me to raise a very significant amount of money for me to get industry buy in and to try to drive what I thought was some necessary sanity in those early days. I don’t do particularly well when I hear, you know, dreamy unsubstantiated claims about what these technologies are going to do. I think that What happened has happened in this Ico and token world is one of the greatest frauds that I’ve witnessed since I’ve, I’ve been around. And no, I’ve been outspoken about this, it doesn’t mean I don’t respect the ingenuity of some of that, but we have always resisted to get rich quick, um, you know, schemes never considered an Ico and No, we’ve always thought about playing the long game and adding substantial and sustainable value for our customers. So it’s, it’s been hard on and we need to be a lot better than we are. But we’ve done a pretty good job in that regard.


Jamie: So I mean, I think the that that 18 month period is is a really interesting moment to understand as an entrepreneur in that the first thing you have to overcome is this inertia. So I mean, clearly your credibility in the space would have helped open doors but still it At that point, it didn’t feel like there were many people, you know, clamouring to be involved in in blockchain. Maybe I would describe it as curiosity. And so how did you break that inertia in an enterprise context? And then the momentum, at least looking from the outside seemed incredible. And I don’t know, whether you would put that down to something that you did really well, or it was kind of just this fear of missing out that caused this Stampede together kind of get involved in a consortium.

David: So that FOMO was a second order effect, but to get the first you know, 12 banks and we had others participate was, was a challenge, but there I had some advantages. One is I had previous success, so I was able to fund The operation myself for the first 18 months, I had, as did some of my founders, a significant enough gravitas and respect that we could speak about something that was broadly perceived to be completely, you know, nuts in in a way that resonated In other words, you know, let’s not focus on on just Bitcoin let’s focus on the power of some of the innovations of the technology and what that could do for us. And I’ll tell you back in 2014, we, you know, we held three big i don’t know what i want to call these things, not you know, meetups, I suppose of the of the banks, roundtables, I think we call them at the time um, but even the mention of Bitcoin caused some trouble I can probably mention it now. They wouldn’t have wanted me to mention it. Then. bammel has America has always been one of our big supporters. And they hosted a pretty big event for us early on. But it was touching go right up to the last minute as to how much quote Bitcoin content we could have, and then still be associated from their, from their compliance departments and I used to send out emails and you know, I’d have to, I’d have to take the word Bitcoin and put some asterisks and stuff so it wasn’t picked up by compliance at the time. But anyways, so so our message resonated. We did some very early lightweight proof of concepts which proves some fundamentals about the capability of the technology and, you know, we also engaged through architecture working group and some other working groups we had we brought them in and said, Look, we don’t know, we don’t know. Everything here and we want to we know, we want Your feedback. Importantly, I have always looked at a problem and thought, or or situation thought, you know, how can we do things better? How can we do things differently? How can we deploy technologies to take the foundation that exists today, and to build something very different. That is a fundamental different approach to the, you know, libertarian, everything’s going to change, there’s not going to be $1 there’s going to be, you know, this stuff so, so I found it a lot more sane, which really wasn’t difficult to do at the time, be honest. Then a lot of other folks out there which helped helped us gain some respect and a following. And then after, you know, the big 12 announced insurance, interestingly, Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan word that were the biggest supporters of my work at that time, and I’m still very grateful to those institution’s but then we had the fear of missing out. And so after months and months and months of hell, after that announcement that came out, our phones are ringing off the hooks and people were throwing money at us, which was really fun period. And I laugh with Todd and Jesse Edwards at the time because they were like, Roger, we have to just tell these people we can’t take the money and I said, you know, if I do you’re both fired or something like that. keep taking it, we’ll figure out how to make it work. And hopefully we have for those initial investors and certainly their equity is worth more than it was at the time they invested which is great, right?

Jamie: And I know you guys you know, if not directly, and indirectly help craft this blockchain not Bitcoin narrative that has enabled an entirely new form of stakeholder to, to move into the space and to detach slightly from a lot of the craziness that happens at the other end of the spectrum. And so one of the ways that I describe initiatives like quarter is it’s kind of web 2.5. It has some of the characteristics that you want to see in Web 3, but it is you it is usable for the world as it is today. And so at what point did you made the decision? And would you classify it as a pivot from going from this idea of kind of procuring and co developing with third party technology vendors to to building the stack that has now become corder and why we so keen on an open sourcing it straightaway, because again, that’s quite an unusual thing to do in an enterprise context.

David: I was not that keen. I had my Yeah, Richard and Todd, annoy me forever. Until I until I capitulated and I’m glad I did. Because, you know, one of the things I had to do With early on Jamie, which drove me nuts is that I had a whole movement within our three. There’s a gentleman, Mike Ward, who, who runs product for Tati and has a very big role, important role in the company. And he’s one of these guys that always wants to look at things different differently. And as a result always causes tension, especially with me. But I think that I’ve learned over the years that respecting other people’s perspectives, especially when they’re well researched is a worthwhile exercise. And his point, all along was we need to buy in from the developer community and in addition to scaling globally, through our big partners, you know, the centres of the world and the like that arm, having having a movement amongst the developers is important, and we won’t do it. Unless we’re open source. And at the time, you know, Ethereum was publishing. You know, we had Have 14.6 billion aetherium developers on the planet which, you know, obviously cause me some confusion. But I’m exaggerating a little bit but but I kept saying my guys I’m like, Guys, it’s because theories is increasing in value. It’s all about money. People will follow the money. You know, the developers will come around when they realise that we’re responsible organisation with a solid piece of technology that is going to drive solutions across industries and across geographies. They will come and Ward’s Ward’s counterproposals. Yeah but we want them in early because we can learn from them and and and from their commits from their experience in using the software so it ended up being a compromise it was something that you know that we talked about for a long time and did we get it right Yeah, I think so. Time will tell you know, our enterprise solution arm is is is You know, what we’re in business to sell and has some features for high throughput users and and big customers, including the service level commitment from our three, which I think is very, very important. But you know, folks don’t need that and can build on open source, we still think it’s going to drive, you know, court adoption globally. So that’s how we got there. But it wasn’t easy.

Jamie: Yeah, I mean, again, whilst a lot of the momentum I was seeing in people I spoke to around the kind of conference kick was, was primarily in the enterprise setting, and that’s what you’ve kind of proactively going after, but increasingly through our accelerator, now we’re starting to see startups, usually with kind of enterprise veterans or kind of more senior people that are leaving these institutions. And, you know, starting a startup, increasingly, if it’s in a regular Latest industry, financial services generally increasingly insurance, we’re seeing that the thing that they’re building on is quarter. And so I think I know you’ve done a quarter COMM And this kind of caught it, that ecosystem is, is seeing some good growth. So the strategy definitely looks like it, it’s paying off and you kind of started at the heart end. And then hopefully this now opens up to that long tail of a smaller startup. And so, in terms of if you look at the different approaches that people have taken the different pathways that you could have taken, the, I guess, competitor, people would have framed that you have a couple of competitors, whether it’s ripple, the organisation, whether it’s the theorem, Alliance and people spinning up a theory and side chains. What was it that you think has led to your increasing, I guess, not just market share of those that are in innovating in the space, but the ability to actually grow the markets?


David: Well, I think it’s, it’s pretty basic coming quarter works, and it scales. And we have thought about the production, you know, experience at scale for very demanding customers from the start. So, so from the very start, you know, when it comes to choosing, you know, kotlin and Java and the various database selections that we made, and all were again, based on this, you know, incrementally improving, but understanding that the technologies must be that we used, you know, needed to be proven, and secure and reliable. So I think those, you know, those types of things really helped. But I think more importantly is that as more and more applications are getting into production, no matter how much time you spend in the lab or on the whiteboard, you know, until you get out there, you don’t really know what you’re going to run into. And to be honest, you know, I think quarter is is good, and I’ll keep getting back to how much we still need to get much better. But our competition, to be honest, has really not proven to be, you know, to have thought through a lot of these production related issues, which is why you see, you know, brilliant technologies like like a theory, I’m kind of having to go back to the drawing board and come up with their version 2.0 and solve a lot of the challenges that they’re facing in the in the real world environment.

Jamie: So a lot of those design choices that you made in the early stages seem to be paying dividends. So recently, there was an independent research body that assessed you against your peers, as to which could meet the standards of federal government. And it was highlighted that some of those decisions you made in your design, programming language and cryptography meant that you are likely one of the only ones that could be adopted at that level. So it’d be great to understand a little bit more about that.

David: Yeah, that was a nice endorsement to read about. And while I’m not, you know, extremely close to it, I understand that Institute makes recommendations as to what the US government can can use. And I think that not only does it spill over to, to the, you know, private markets, but I think other governments look at that as well. So, you know, it’s it’s kind of timely from our perspective, because we have some pretty big projects going on with various central banks and governments around the world. And it’s also just A really nice endorsement of those early design decisions we made. As I spoke to briefly the, you know, the decisions around Java and SQL databases and other things that we did was we tried to use the powers of the new technology, but also leverage proven existing technologies that have stood the test of time. And I think that combination and those decisions are paying dividends, not just through endorsements like this, but through, you know, the rapid growth of our ecosystem and the number of court apps that are we that we’re seeing being built now and deployed into production.


Jamie: I know you guys pride yourself on scalability and performance. And often directly reference you can speed up processes in financial services around you know, financial agreements, both the execution and and I guess it’s removing this cost of trust. But you also speak about the governance component. So obviously, you can look at it from whether it’s a curse or a blessing that a lot of the competing technologies or the organisations around those competing technologies have different kind of governance models about how things are iterated and decided. And I know, you know, you very candidly mentioned this healthy tension from a engineering perspective. And as you scale as you have more voices, as you have different, more pathways, more markets, you can go into, how do you how do you find a balance and keep those tensions healthy rather than unhealthy?

David: Ah, that is a very good and timely question. I mean, I think that tension within an organisation that’s based on mutual respect can really create roots are a lot of organisations and I have a certain style. And I’m sure if you talk to some of my exco members drive them crazy but right now arm I am very aggressively challenging all of my direct reports to think about what we need to do differently to be ready for a post COVID-19 environment. And you know, what does that mean? And so, I I create the intention because I added the tension because then then start thinking about you know, the weaknesses we have in various parts of our organisation and I will never stop thinking about that. So right now when I look at COVID-19 and where we come out of this thing, I think that if you look back to whether it’s and I’ve been through a lot of crisis ease, maybe because I’ve been around so long, but I’ve actually been Reading a bit more about the Great Depression and the Spanish flu and, and the roaring 20s and the like. And there is no doubt that on the back ends of these very, very difficult periods, there’s a willingness to try new things and to, you know, change the way you do business. And what that’s resulted in the past is a real acceleration of adoption of different types of technologies. You know, as in the 20s, it was everything from automobiles and washing machines. And, you know, after 2008 nine, there’s been a lot of digital banking innovations and also automations and back office services. So the question is, you know, what is it going to look like for us and I think, you know, the research project is over guys, we need to be able to to deliver with our partners and supporting our partners potentially, much more actively than we have. In the past solutions that create nearly immediate financial Endor social benefit to our customers. So what does that mean? That means that, you know, maybe we need to look at how we can more rapidly deploy to a cloud environment, a lot of our heavyweight institutional customers, you know, still still like to manage their own it suite. But I believe that I believe that will change. So how do we deploy more quickly, you know, applications that can make a difference? And if we start there, and then we’re back, what could we be doing differently? Also, how do we support our ecosystem? There’s hundreds of very qualified core developers out there that you know, are are under threat in some way, not just our entrepreneurial startups, but also other organisations that are software developers and houses and the like, and, and, you know, we want to make sure that we help them remain healthy. So can we both agree accelerate our build, can we, you know, rise to meet these challenges and, and potentially outsource some more of our development to help our ecosystem survive as well. And it’s easy for me to say that as a CEO, it’s, it’s harder for my folks to be able to execute against that. Think that’s what’s gonna make us different or special, and it’s gonna make us succeed. So I admit that I create a lot of tension. And I’m on very, very direct at times, but I do. I do. Listen. I don’t think I’m right all the time. I actually, you know, but I do think that by pushing my team, we get to the right place, you know, more often than not,


Jamie: I mean, it’s always good to speak to entrepreneurs at moments like this in history, because I suffer from the same curse. We’re eternal optimists. We always see opportunity, even in the crisis. And you know, similarly, if you look at when Bitcoin happened, you could see Bitcoin as a direct response to on the last major financial crashes. So I’m also very excited about innovations that are going to be coming off the ramps, perhaps that already exists, but that could be accelerated. And so that’s quite a nice segue, actually, I think it was last time I was in Asia is in Singapore, I met with some of your team at the Singapore office for coffee. And they were talking about your focus around security tokens. So I know you’re not anti tokenization or the digitization of, of assets. And of course, there’s this whole groundswell now around government backed digital currencies, as catalysed by Libra. What’s your perspective on on all?

David: So so I think tokens are very powerful, and we’re definitely not anti token nor have I ever been anti token I believe in delivering value for money to customers. That’s how businesses are sustained. So getting rich quick schemes on issuing tokens with nonsense, or no business plan, I find, you know, ridiculously objectionable. So I want to want to make sure that you know, you understand Jamie, how I differentiate Now, using tokens from micro payments or using smart money. I did a, I did a piece recently where I, you know, I read about Trump’s plan to get, you know, money in Americans hands to drive the economy. So we’re going to write 1200 dollar checks, you know, and it makes the hair stand up in the back of my neck, because I remember when bush did that, and that was kind of part of my paper. You know, we have the power now to use money, in a way for social good to drive behaviour and outcomes that benefit everyone. So let’s talk about a couple examples really quickly. So what my piece was about Is that if you really wanted to, to, to dry the economy, especially in the crisis we’re having, we have such a, a, a, a rapid and such a dramatic impact, what you want to do is you want to get people in the money’s sorry, money in people’s hands very quickly, and you want them to spend it very quickly. So it’s very easy to have programmable money that expires in X number of days, it’s easy to build a type of money that can only be spent on certain things. economy’s so bad right now, you know, even if they’re going to the liquor store, you probably permit that, who cares? It’s going to drive, you know, drive the economy a little bit. But if we think about other social cases, you know, on welfare and the like, you could have your welfare money, no, make sure it goes to food and to support housing, housing and the like. In that case, you don’t want it going TO to alcohol for sure. In cases of, you know, families that have been separated or divorced, you know, making sure that support payments go to the kids in a way that they’re supposed to, to support schooling and all this sort of stuff. This is all very much in our power. It exists the technology for this exists today. So I really believe and this actually might be led by China and then ultimately driven by Western countries that are, again have FOMO that are worried about missing out, but you know, I’ve moved to Europe, I haven’t seen a check for years, Americans still write them. But you know, we kind of tap everywhere is, you know, Jamie, for everything we go everything we do. So, you know, having taking the next step towards central bank, digital currencies and programmable money, I think is just a no brainer, and we’re going to see that and then the other thing I’ll say is that I don’t, especially given my background because we’ve talked about this. I don’t underestimate how big a step This is, in some ways. So when you think about central bank digital currency, that are that are retail oriented like the Riksbank and Sweden is, is considering there’s all sorts of monetary policy issues that you really have to think through. That being said, to have programmable money for specific cases or to have central bank digital currencies for institutional commerce, so that we can achieve atomic settlement on corta and on other blockchains arm makes a tremendous amount of sense to me.


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