podcasts

The Power of Memetics and Social Capital in Crypto, Jordan Lyall of $MEME

podcasts

The Power of Memetics and Social Capital in Crypto, Jordan Lyall of $MEME

October 2020

Posted by

Roland Spencer

Creative Producer

Jordan is a serial founder, digital advertising and product designer that has a history of making digital viral hits. This time, he half-jokingly birthed a parody on the craziness of permissionless innovation in DeFi, ‘degen culture’ and the various food protocols of 2020.

In the process, he started a crazy community experiment in collectibles and NFT (Non Fungible Token) food farming, which raises questions about the role and responsibility of a founder, at the edge of Web 3.

Posted by Roland Spencer - October 2020

October 2020

Posted by

Roland Spencer

Creative Producer

Listen on iTunes

 

Jamie Burke 0:13
You’re an early stage web three founder apply to our award winning accelerator programme base camp at Outlier ventures.io slash base camp, we write your first $50,000 check and give you access to 200 mentors, including many of the leading web three founders, and a network of 1000 of the world’s leading investors and exchanges. We’ve helped over 30 startups from 15 countries from all around the world, raise 100 and $30 million in growth funding, I can help you fast track product market fit and where relevant the launch of your token economy. So today, I’m really happy to welcome john Lyle and product lead of DeFi at consensus, and, well, we’re gonna get into this protagonist, founder, co founder, creator of don’t buy meme, or meme token, welcome to the show, Jordan, immigrants. So I’m really excited to have you on the show for several reasons. Maybe for the audience to explain, meme, it’s described as allowing you to farm limited edition, NF T’s. As I said, it’s gonna be interesting to unpack, you know, your role in all of this, I would, I would call you a founder, maybe a co founder. But again, you know, what is the role of an individual initiator in something as complex as social as as meme? I’m looking forward to discuss. But you’ve always been very upfront in kind of all that. Marketing, non marketing out there, you know, don’t buy meme that this is high risk, edge case experiments. And, you know, described as an experimental protocol, mashing up some of the most exciting innovations, both in divar, defy and crypto collectibles. You yourself are a serial technology entrepreneur, Product Manager, product designer, crypto investor and builder. And you describe yourself as being passionate about bringing design and usability to crypto. And what I’m increasingly calling this consumerization consumer education of Crypto taking it to the masses making web three crossover. And so I think the more we context, your background and unpack that I think it’s really obvious that that you are the kind of person that that can make this happen, at least contribute to to the cause. So reasons on the show, meme token is is the new hot thing, even in a world of kind of hyper hot new things. This is, of course, October 2020. For people that might be listening to a different time DeFi moves quickly, and could be said to be a continuation or evolution of what’s been going on with DeFi food protocols. But more importantly, I think an example of this new trend of how DeFi and NF T’s non fungible tokens and decentralised finance, are beginning to combine merge, I will see NF T’s as a subset of d phi. And we’re starting to see not just in meme but and things like Avi got che these these two things being combined. I think it also offers a glimpse as NF t as loyalty as a loyalty mechanism, both in the context of DeFi. And more generally. And that’s kind of a thesis that I’m noodling on at the moment. So I’m really looking forward to riffing with you on that. And the project’s doing really well. I mean, how old is it at this stage? It’s kind of

Jordan Lyall 3:52
kicked off, um, let’s see August 14. So and really, you know, we hit main net 10 days later. So depending on when you want to start the timer went about six weeks.

Jamie Burke 4:05
That’s insane. And so prices like $302, market caps, just over 6 million has probably gone up since since I last looked. But what’s really interesting about this, this journey, this founder, journey, this founder experiences, that you’re still working out a consensus. So this was really like a side thing, stemming from a tweet that you put out there, that kind of manifest this this crazy experiment. And so it’s going to be interesting to understand this in the context of the work that you do at consensus, and it’s a separate thing, but of course, I guess related. So as I said, You’re your serial founder, you’ve even had an acquisition and, and you’ve got a very strong kind of digital advertising agency background, which again, I think, probably lends itself to why you understand the power of mimetics and social media. amorality to quickly summarise your background, contextualise you. So you did business management back in graduating 2005 at California State University Fullerton, from 2004 2011 had various roles in online media advertising, digital advertising, I believe your first startup that you co founded was in 2011. Right for big digital.

Unknown Speaker 5:28
Yeah, correct. We were really just like an agency. Web Development Agency was several larger media companies.

Jamie Burke 5:39
Right. And then you did a spin out called Hello, Santa. I don’t know that’s the same team, from for big digital working on it, where you had a product and co founder. And this was offering live one on one video calls with Santa my seven year old daughter would love that. And it got quiet by jibber jabber in 2014. And it’s funny when I was looking at this, like I am, I’ve definitely had something, some engagement with jibber jabber at some point itself a load of alarm bells, like I’m still struggling to, to recall them. But can you tell us a little bit more about GPR? It’s like a digital subscription product, right?

Jordan Lyall 6:16
Yeah, they do a number of things now, but that’s kind of their, their main product is this digital subscription product where you’re able to send things, you know, greeting cards, electronic greeting cards, and they were kind of made famous with, like, elf yourself, when you’re able to put your face and the faces of your friends and family into right, animated elves dancing on the screen. And they’ve turned that into over the years, they’ve turned that into a nice kind of subscription business. But they really been they go back to like, 1999. So they’ve been, they’ve been around a long time. They’re the pioneers of digital media stuff. And they were, you know, have had different heads over the over the decades. And they’ve been writing each wave of tech as it’s come, but they kind of pioneered the internet means so I don’t think it’s a I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to imagine myself here at the intersection of tech media and jokes. Like, yeah, so just to just to kind of go back to what you mentioned earlier, when we had this business called for bit digital, we were where we were servicing other clients, building other people’s product ideas. And it came to a point where it was like, you know, this isn’t fun building other people’s vision. We have our own ideas, too. And one day, we said, Hey, wouldn’t it be cool if our kids can talk to Santa online without going to the mall. This was in 2013. So things look a bit different back then. But we fired all our clients and created this digital Santa business. And as crazy as this means stuff is like the Santa’s stuff was was even stranger. We we literally fired paying clients. And we went and we started hiring centres. And we built this, we built this infrastructure that would allow, you know, a mom and dad on an iPhone, anywhere in the world, to have this live, interactive video call with with Santa is sitting. You know, this, the Santa actor sitting there home with a green screen behind them, we hired a few dozen Santa actors, and we put we gave them suits, and we gave them beards if they needed one. And we built this mobile app. And we built this infrastructure that allowed for, you know, the routing of calls. It was this crazy ride where we, you know, we were on TechCrunch we were on the Today Show, which is a big show here in the US. Again, it was like similar vein to what’s happening now on the on the meme side and just several months, we went from like a silly idea to like appearing on the biggest talk show in the US. It was crazy. And then shortly after that initial like independent launch than a job requires right away and it was great to kind of marry the to the vision that Jeff had the the you know, the families we tapped into their subscription, their their days, and we were able to continue that for another season or two. And then then then kind of slowly brought that down and then I went to work for for Jim’s dad stayed there for a few years and got to learn that subscription business and learn from the founders directly and had a great time doing it. And that was that was quite a ride. And now we’re starting to see especially with COVID the desire for families to like still have the Santa experience but stay at home. So we might have been a little earlier. With that, I mean, we we had some success there. Obviously, we were able to sell this mess. But I think this, I’m starting to see some copycats this year

Jamie Burke 10:10
with COVID. So it’s so it’s pretty cool. I wish them success because it’s it’s a cool experience for everybody. Bring back Hello, Santa. So. So you were doing your product lead at jabz digital subscription product for about four years for what I could see. And then you made the leap into into Crypto and I don’t know how to pronounce this. Is it? Total? It’s total? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, there you go. So you achieve product officer. And that was 18 to 19. And that was a platform for crypto asset trading consumer focused products and building out kind of API’s. What was the what made that leap that transition from from job into your first kind of crypto gig?

Jordan Lyall 11:00
Yeah, you know, I was just on the sides, just as passionate product builder. And I’ve gone down the crypto rabbit hole, so to speak, or for a few years now. And I was building side projects, and you know, passion projects, and just really involved from, like a hobby perspective was an interest of mine. athyrium started getting popular, and I started just you know, I jumped in, and I’m like, this is amazing. Bitcoin was great. But as a product person, my eyes just totally lit up with the potential and all the things we could build on top of aetherium using smart contracts. And as as someone just super curious, someone always trying to build tools and experiences. It was like, wow, we could actually do something here. It’s more than just sending money peer to peer, we can actually build a banking infrastructure, we can build some fun games, we can build so many cool experiences on top of aetherium. And I had some success with some small side projects. So I was like, you know, I’m gonna be spending nights and weekends building on Ethereum, I may as well go in full time. And I ran into the guys that total. And they they’ve got some really cool tech. They’ve got some really smart people, but they hadn’t really cracked the nut on product and user experience. And I thought that being my background, I would bring in some some value there and be able to complement with what what they were doing. And, and I was right. I joined the team there in 2018, early 2018. And they’re still around they’re they’re doing great. And they’re they’re a dex aggregators, so various decentralised exchanges, they were one of the first to kind of pull the liquidity together and provide a single interface for that the decentralised exchange. liquidity.

Jamie Burke 12:55
Very cool. So then July 2019, to now he joined consensus as product lead. For DeFi. What a higher buy. Joe, was he was involved in that process. I mean, that’s got to be the higher of 2020 or higher in 2019.

Jordan Lyall 13:12
Oh, you’re too kind. No, I Joe wasn’t involved in the hiring process. But I think that that made a lot of sense for me to is to do like, hey, defies this hot new thing. Why wouldn’t you want to be a consensus which has their hands and everything, and just has the resources to kind of to kind of experiment so that was that made sense for me to make that leap?

Jamie Burke 13:37
Well, whoever’s in the HR team at consensus definitely gets a bonus this Christmas. So maybe we kind of move into that. The thing is to understand mean, you first need to understand quite a few other things, you need to unpack a few other things. So on the one hand, you need to understand what’s going on in the world of NF T’s and collectibles, almost as a continuation evolution of crypto kitties. And on the other hand, you kind of need to orientate yourself with the whole DeFi 1.0. Or kind of, you know, food protocol craze relatively recently. I don’t know if it was short lived, or, you know, it’s kind of just going through an evolution. But could you could you just contextualise those those two things as you see it? And what was interesting to you and presumably consensus about about those two, two trends? Sure.

Jordan Lyall 14:33
Yeah. As I mentioned, you know, I’m still employed by consensus. I am a product lead within the DeFi, you know, vertical realm. And I built a number of projects been on, you know, leading various teams. And the common thread is how do we make DeFi more accessible? And, you know, one of the projects that we launched was the D I score and it was like, it really it really can be boiled down to what is a what is the range of ratings agency look like on the blockchain. So it was a way to kind of have these gauge some of the complexities of these decentralised exchanges and analyse risk are across these defy protocols. And it was like, so step one would be let’s try to standardise the risk. Knowing that, you know, in the long run, we make this experience a little bit easier for the users. Step one is, let’s try to boil down and kind of standardise the risk profile for these different lending pools and exchanges and experiences. We can’t expect an average user to jump in and read the smart contract of all these platforms need to find a way to still still objectively but analyse and still it still in this decentralised way, but analysed why one platform has an API of x. And another of why, what why is there a difference? And what are the different risk with the smart contract risk, volatility risk, or a call risk. So we boiled that down to a single digit. And we’ve been kind of pushing that forward in this kind of community focused way. So anyways, everything that I’ve done at consensus has been about bridging the gap towards a more general audience, right. And not just the the DeFi heads are not just the crypt, the eath heads that are currently trading and lending and using these protocols. So even though like our immediate audience are these folks were eating our own dog food, as they say. But with Canvas longer term vision are aimed at a general audience. And so that’s kind of been my been my thing throughout this throughout these years. And it just so happened to be that we found the intersection in this crazy upside down accidental way where we found this intersection where DeFi intersects where DeFi meets NF T’s and it was kind of this serendipitous magical moment where we stumbled upon this. But we really found that NF T’s are even though when you when many of us think of NF T’s we think of crypto collectibles, and art and cartoon kitties, or whatever, wherever your mind takes you. But there’s so much more. And that’s just kind of the use case that’s kind of found favour, so to speak now. But there’s so many other cool things that this technology can do provable ownership of digital assets, that I think it’s really going to help bridge the gap and bring on, you know, in the long term, bring aboard millions and millions of, you know, web to audiences over to this web three world. So I’m really excited to be at this, this unique point in time and this unique intersection of tech.

Jamie Burke 18:05
Yes. So what really excites me about NF T’s is that if you look at, you know, the use cases of fungible tokens in the context of cryptocurrencies, there’s only so many people on the planet, the global population that would ever go and buy, go to an exchange and buy a cryptocurrency and care about what that represents, whilst in the context of non fungible tokens. Pretty much everything other than things like money in some commodities are non fungible. So there’s a huge variation of use case. But as you say, the kind of thin end of the wedge that we’re looking at now collectibles, digital art, you know, the highly visual, they are eye catching, shareable. They are almost social assets that can be shared within existing web two communities, and bringing in a whole new kind of class of use. And so I mean, I guess what you’re doing with me, and as an experiment is really is trying to tap into the ability of NF T’s as a as a social currency, is that kind of how you see it, and it’d be good to understand, you say this all started with a tweet. You know, what, tell us more about the tweets and kind of, in your mind, what is the experiment about?

Jordan Lyall 19:26
Yeah, well, the tweet will start with the tweet. So as mentioned, my background is within DeFi, and specifically DeFi risk, right? So I have this, you know, this, this background, and by day, that’s what I’m working on at consensus, and by night, I’m a trader, I’m a I’m a yield farmer. I like to get involved and as a product person, I like to try out all the different products and experiment with different things. So it’s this nice, you know, balancing act of like, wanting to protect the average user, but I am you know, I have a different tolerance for risk, because I want to kind of experiment and get involved. So when this when this all happened six or seven weeks ago, it seems like forever ago in DeFi, it was this was mid August. This was right after yam had launched. This is right after the CRV token. And all the contracts were launched by a anonymous DeFi Chad, person on Twitter. And this base base had just launched, this whole rebasing mechanism was was taking taking on it was a really weird time, you know, test and prod by Andre and urine. This was this was before sushi and before pasta, and before all these food coin clones, that it was really just commentary on this YOLO development nature by a lot of these defy protocol devs. And it was like, hey, long term, we want to make this more accessible to users. Until then, let’s just throw stuff against the wall and see what happens. So it was it was commentary on just kind of the silliness of it all with a little bit tongue in cheek, because I’m involved. So that’s what the tweet was actually was this fake product mock up that I had made. So I designed this fake product. I said, wouldn’t it be funny if there was a essentially like a WordPress for DeFi protocols where you could spin up a DeFi platform in as little as five minutes. And that was the joke. So it was this interface where you click a couple buttons, you say, Okay, I want the I want the compound governance contract. And I want the Ampleforth rebasing contract, I want the synthetics staking contract. And you pick, you pick your food emoji, and you launch it to main net, and you deploy on the spot, you pre mine, and then you deploy. So it was this joke, and there are lots of Easter eggs in there. But the whole thing was poking fun at like, hey, these, these guys are just mashing up existing contracts. And the joke is that these are battle tested, because they’ve been used on other platforms. And even though that we’re mashing them up, you don’t need to worry about risk and once launched, millions and millions, 10s of millions of dollars, go into these pools, hundreds of millions of dollars, enter some of these pools without an audit. And it was commentary on that, that like this is this is pretty crazy. We’re what this is all one big experiment. But we’re all pretending that this is just magical internet money going into these contracts before we’ve even looked at what these contracts do. So that was that was a tweet. And I thought it would take off. And it just so happened to be that in this in this little design in this mock up. I had chosen the pineapple emoji as the example in the drop down of the of this fake product. I just just happened to choose the pineapple. And I thought some people would retweet it I thought certain people would get a laugh ended up being quarter million impressions later. And this thing went viral. A theory and people loved it because it kind of put because it kind of poked fun at ourselves. Bitcoin people liked it because they thought I was making fun of the theorem. And so Maxis on both sides just had a blast. It really took off. And I’m sitting there, it’s the middle of the night, my my my time on a Friday night. And this is just gaining traction.

I said I should take

I should I should utilise some of this momentum. So I created a telegram group with the only the intention of let’s have, let’s have a laugh. Let’s get some people in this telegram group that get this joke. Some of the people in the DeFi space, some friends of mine, maybe we can talk about what this looks like. And maybe we can go build out the product that I had jokingly designed. But things things kind of took took a life of its own. And the community had different ideas. But I created this telegram group a bunch of people jumped in brainstorming different ideas. Someone said hey, let’s create a token for this community that being built. token was created and airdrops early members of the community. And it was was kind of branded A this is all a joke. This is all a meme. Let’s call it the meme token. And it was airdrop to a few dozen people. And at the time, there was nothing there. That was really just a joke coin. And the thought was Hey, we can be like Doge we can be Dogecoin for defy or we could be you know the 2020 version of of this meme coin. And that was it. And a lot of people started asking Hey, what’s What is this thing? What’s going on? And I’m just trying to tell people like, this is a joke. This was satire, don’t lose your shirt here, there’s nothing here don’t buy mean. And that’s where it’s stuck. It’s became a hashtag, it became a meme in itself a meta meme. And that’s don’t buy meme.com that’s I went and bought that domain, it was really just don’t buy this thing. Because it’s not, there’s nothing here. It’s just a joke. However, as as kind of the night progressed, so we’re still, you know, hours removed from that original tweet it, it became something that like, hey, if this is my names attached to this thing, I don’t want it to go down, like pump and dump territory. I don’t want this to be a scam, which it could very well turn into at that point, right? I instead of hijacked, right? Yeah. And some of these whales and some these pump and dump groups got got involved, and I’m trying to steer it away from that. My name is attached because of how it originated. A lot of other people are anonymous, they’re in there just to like flip and make some money. I not did not want that to happen. So I said, Hey, if this is a if this is a DeFi version of Doge, if this is a DeFi meme token, then it should be composable. Right? It should be a Lego brick, the kind of the meme of DeFi is that these are money, Legos, because each of these protocols are composable. Right? Everyone’s building on each other. These are open source projects. And were kind of forking each other’s code and improving the system and kind of growing together as a as an ecosystem. So this should be composable. It should be a platform that other projects can tap into, and we can borrow other projects code. So it was like, hey, let’s go build something. I am. As we’ve discussed, I’m a Product guy. I’m currently building full time building products in DeFi. So there was a small group of us that kind of floated to the surface here amongst the the de gens and traders and I don’t mean that a derogatory term, they will, they will tell you that actually, a few of us here that are builders that are smart contract developers that have experience running teams that have experience running, you know, moderating a telegram group, etc. So several of us kind of took took it upon ourselves to actually turn this into a real project. So it was really just a day later, where we started building. And 10 days after that original tweet, we had live on Main net, this new protocol that allows a user to an amine for NF Ts, or it’s, it’s really something we pioneer this NFT farming process. So it started out in this joke, it turned into this crazy community that was really close to writing off the rails. And then in just a week and a half later, this, this, this team pioneered, like this new mechanism that combines DeFi and NF T’s. So it’s really this crazy story. I’m, even though I just described it, it’s hard to believe. But it’s, it’s been a blast, and we’ve just been building ever since.

Jamie Burke 28:18
Yeah, I mean, this just, it’s just representative of so many things. It’s a great case study for people to learn about, you know, define NF T’s, and all the good stuff, and all the all the bad stuff, all the challenges, as you say, you know, the thing, the direction that these things can turn, how do you interact with the anonymous or pseudo anonymous participants in the system, you know, as the game as the game kind of plays out, but I think it also, it also really speaks to just the how low the barrier to innovation is, and how you can kind of borrow from all these composable elements, and, and create something new in an evening, right, or in a week. I mean, it’s insane rate of innovation that that this permissionless environment gives and I think, in a way, it’s so 2020 as well, because the fact that we’re all locked up in this kind of unbroken connection with our devices or of virtual communities, you know, with this pace of innovation happen if if we weren’t all kind of going through this weird COVID time. So it almost is representative of wider 2020. And so, you know, you mentioned for years really important that this took the right direction. And so you’re in the US, you’re a US citizen, we all know, the SEC is somewhat confused about what’s going on, or at least there’s a lag right between weather, weather acting and where the market is. So you know, they’re still kind of cleaning up a lot of the stuff that went on in Icos, the malpractice device going on, and it’s probably going to be, you know, at least two years potentially more before they even catch it with what’s going on in this space. You know, whether whether any concerns as, as somebody that kind of put this out, there could be the risk of liability. And I asked that not to kind of trip you up. But as an innovator, you know, is an innovator in the US is, are these considerations concerns that you have?

Jordan Lyall 30:27
Yes or No, I would say that. Well, first off, like our compliance is rock solid, we tell people not to buy, right. I’m kidding. We, there is some concern there, obviously, we want to be careful there. But this is more than, like, the way it exists. Right now. It’s this decentralised organisation, there are token holders, but there’s no entity. There’s just a couple of builders. But obviously there that is something that we’re aware of, and we’re trying to stay on top of, I think it’s helpful to have some kind of connection, whether it’s just implied, or whether it’s just me personally having some, some tie to consensus with the legal team. And, you know, some help there on that side, as we think about next step and ways to scale this thing. Do we create a company on top? Or how do we how do we take this to the next level? So once that if and when that becomes a reality, then then of course, that’s, that becomes something that that we really need to think seriously about? So I wouldn’t say we’ve written it off. We’re in this experimentation mode. So I think it’s less of a concern right now. But as this thing grows and scales, it’s something that, that we’ll need to be thinking a lot about,

Jamie Burke 31:47
I guess, you know, you have comfort in knowing that you’re a good actor. And, you know, you’re doing everything you can to make sure that this is a positive experiment. I guess like, because it happened so quickly. I mean, you know, if I were in your shoes, and all of a sudden, this just explodes, like it did, as you say, in an evening, right? I mean, the amount of times I put out a tweet drunk and deleted it, just because it’s like, Oh, God. And you know, that has nowhere near the kind of scale and consequences of something like this. Do you think retrospectively, you would have chosen anonymity, if you knew that it would become what it is? Because I know that that is now a consideration for a lot of innovation innovators, especially in the US in DeFi. If they pre plan it, that they they they kind of starting out from a pseudo anonymous perspective.

Jordan Lyall 32:42
Yeah, that’s a really good question. I mean, just in general, what would we do differently? if we, if we could start over? I think there’s something to be said. And we maybe would have thought about, you know, maybe making, you know, creating an allocation of the token to allow for a development fun, because right now, everything’s been distributed. So it’s hard to pay developers, right? Would I have been anonymous? How would we have seen the level of its success? I think a lot of people would have jumped in. Look, there was there was something about magical this this, something magical about the community and the brand, that would have seen some success in the early days. We’re seeing that with these copycats. I won’t name them. But there are several that and a lot of them are doing some interesting things. But with an anonymous founder, it’s, at least from my perspective, from users from users front. It’s hard to invest time as a community member, it’s hard to invest, you know, social capital, it’s hard to stick with the project long term, if there’s an anonymous founder. Because there’s no skin in the game, I think there’s something about anonymous founders. And I’d like to see that explored a little bit. Because you’re able to do things that you wouldn’t otherwise do, you’re able to take experiments and take different risks. But what made ours unique is that I was attached to it. I don’t mean to put everything on me because the community did. So the community was able to take this to another level and do things that I wouldn’t be able to do. wouldn’t have been able to do, but I think it gave a lot of people, I guess some a little bit more confidence in the project that I was that there was a person attached to it, and that this person had experienced building DeFi products. And that one way or another consensus was somehow attached to it, even though I tried to separate that early on. So I think, once especially once we started building a project, we started building the protocol. The price started climbing, I think that kind of led to additional hype is that hey, this is not just another name clone. This is a real project. So I think there was something there.

Jamie Burke 35:04
So So where does it go next then? So, you know, I guess this could go in several different directions. What’s on the table? What are you thinking about?

Jordan Lyall 35:15
Yeah, we didn’t get too much into the actual product of staking assets for minting limited, and if teams, but I think there’s a lot there that’s yet to be explored. And we’ll continue to kind of tap into that. What I found is that we’re, we’re, we’re bringing NF T’s and the usefulness and the collectability. And this tech, that’s provable ownership of digital assets, we’re bringing that into the DeFi world. And that’s yet to be really fleshed out. And another, a few other copycat projects, and additional spin off projects and number of groups are innovating in this space. But it’s really exciting to kind of cross the streams here of NF t and d phi. So continued exploration there. we’re experimenting with exclusive artists drops, in my mind, it’s like a supreme, sort of hypebeast model, where there’s scarcity and consistency of these artists drops, almost like sneaker drops, I think is a really cool model to explore. And we’re continuing to go down that route. We’re working with our artists spend and trying to explore different art different auction models, with the success of this artist drop, where we’re receiving a lot of inbound requests from some of the top artists in the digital art space and the NFT world. So it’s like experimenting with them, they’re actually seeing that this is a model that where they may see additional monetization, where the kind of revenue per item or revenue per user, you know, what, however you want to call it is actually higher on our platform versus others, because they’re able to really engage the community, instead of just selling an NFT to a whale, they could come to our platform, and really get dozens and hundreds of people involved. And everyone’s staking for their asset, everyone feels like they’re part of this thing. So they’re, they’re able to see quite, quite a bit more revenue on our platform versus others. So we’ve built this artists platform, it’s continuing to build out this platform. And this this, like little mini economy where artists can engage with their communities, communities feel like this sense of engagement. And so it’s building out that platform, it’s working, a number of other brands have reached out saying, Hey, can we can we work together. So it’s continuing to build on the platform internally, but then potentially some spin off projects with big brands, I really do see that this is, as mentioned, like this is the bridge towards the average user getting into web three. So that’s the long term vision. And there are several kind of milestones in between that, and a lot, a lot of fun things in store with with what’s to come.

Jamie Burke 38:25
Jonah, it’s been fascinating talking to you, I think, what an amazing experiment. Thank you for your candidness as well and talking us through it. And I’m really excited to see what happens next. So thanks again for coming on.

Jordan Lyall 38:38
Yeah, thanks a lot. My pleasure. That was it. That was great.

Jamie Burke 38:43
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