podcasts

The Internet Computer & Open Internet Services, with Dominic Williams of Dfinity

podcasts

The Internet Computer & Open Internet Services, with Dominic Williams of Dfinity

December 2020

Posted by

Roland Spencer

Creative Producer

Roland is also responsible for the identification and implementation of new creative strands, with a specific focus on building community, communication and content strategy, and overseeing community output and engagement for the team....read more

We talk to Dominic Williams CEO of DFinity about his vision for ‘The Internet Computer’, inspired by the Ethereum world computer, but fundamentally architected in a different way to allow for what he calls Open Internet Services: the ability for entrepreneurs and coders to build applications directly into the internet to remove dependencies on AWS, for truly unstoppable code.

We explore his journey as a founder through all three web cycles building distributed systems and how Web 3 can allow for secure economic structure without firewalls, and more resilient to black swan events.

Posted by Roland Spencer - December 2020

December 2020

Posted by

Roland Spencer

Creative Producer

Roland is also responsible for the identification and implementation of new creative strands, with a specific focus on building community, communication and content strategy, and overseeing community output and engagement for the team....read more

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Jamie Burke 0:13
You’re an early stage web three founder apply to our award winning accelerator programme base camp at Outlier ventures.io slash base camp, we write your first $50,000 check and give you access to 200 mentors, including many of the leading web three founders, and a network of 1000 of the world’s leading investors and exchanges. We’ve helped over 30 startups from 15 countries from all around the world, raise 100 and $30 million in growth funding. It can help you fast track product market fit and where relevant the launch of your token economy. So today, I’m very happy to welcome Dominic Williams, president and chief scientist of definity. Welcome, Dominic.

Dominic Williams 0:53
Thank you for having me, Jamie.

Jamie Burke 0:54
Good to speak to fellow Brit although I’m not sure you qualify. Now, given you’ve been galavan, gallivanting around the world, and I believe are currently holed up in the US at the moment.

Dominic Williams 1:06
I am. I’m in Palo Alto currently. And I probably qualify as an expat at before COVID. In I moved around a lot more. We have several research centres at definity, one biggest in Zurich, one in San Francisco, one in Palo Alto, and a small one in Tokyo. But I currently live in Palo Alto, and I’m speaking to you from our Palo Alto Research Centre.

Jamie Burke 1:31
Well, you definitely kept the accent, but I guess it’s good to trade off in the US anyway, isn’t it? So why? Why? Why throw why throw away

Dominic Williams 1:38
that. But there are many, there are many Brits over here. But you know, you’ve you’ve, you’ve got people who’ve been here for 20 years, and the accent just stays the same. It’s very funny.

Jamie Burke 1:47
Yeah. So the dependency foundation is developing a protocol called the internet computer ICP. And that will its aim is to extend the internet. So it can host software and logic data and data natively in smart contracts, by combining compute capacity provided by an independent network of data centres all around the world. So the reasons why I’ve got you on the show as a founder, firstly, you’re a serial founder. So you have been through all three of the web cycles, if you agree that we’re in a third one, you’ve had at least one exit from what I could see with our dogs with with Mo,

Dominic Williams 2:26
um, I mean, this, you know, there’s, I’ve done all kinds of things and some, some of the things that I would count as being my biggest achievements actually didn’t result in any particular financial gain for me, others that I’m not particularly proud, it did result in a financial gain. So I think the the journey of tech founders, especially outside of Silicon Valley can be very storied. You know, I was working on tech startups, you know, long before you had, you know, any kind of venture capital that was tech savvy, in the UK. And, you know, I can tell you that in a being here in Silicon Valley makes things much easier. It’s a different kind of experience. And not, not least, because you’re, you know, you’re able to expose and lean on pre existing wisdom, for entrepreneurs and investors and so on. But I, you know, I see things getting much better in Europe and London, too. And hopefully, people will have things easier than I did. But but it’s it’s true that I’ve done with a lot of things. Actually, during during.com, I was trying to create, I guess, probably the world’s first major cloud computing platform, I had a protocol smart drives edocs actually was a sort of spin on that, that was aimed at that the mobile computing market. And this thing called Smart drives enabled you to access files stored on a remote server over slow internet connections. We did some really clever stuff with differential compression. And that would use these sort of heuristics to identify common bytes and files so we could reduce the amount of data being transmitted. And, you know, we’re actually that was my first exposure to cryptography because we’re using things something called diffie Hellman key exchange to establish secure connections and this was back in you know, 99 2000 2001. And the technology was called adaptive redundant transfer reduction. But the aim anyway was to a sell the software to enterprises and be credit cloud service where that would enable any consumer or any business to store their files online. And it was really cool. I mean, it had a lot of advanced features and Back in the day, you know, we’re, for example, talking to energies, which was a power company that laid fibre optics over its power lines, and provided the sort of backbone connectivity for free serve, which was the world’s biggest ISP at the time. And they gave you free internet access and made money from the sort of kickbacks on the dial up connections people use back then. And, you know, the plan was to create this big cloud service that enabled anybody to keep their files online. But it was more than that it enabled people to collaborate and share files better. And then then the then the.com, crash hat. And that was pretty brutal. And, you know, back then, you had a kind of eclectic mix of investors, you know, you just didn’t have the tech investors that you see today. And, you know, I had a former as an investor and all kinds of interesting people involved. And once the.com, crash hit, you know, pretty much everyone was toddle, tarred with the same brush, you know, and the sentiment turned very much against people developing technology projects. And and, frankly, you know, back in London, in 2001, you know, people looked at me, like us from another planet, when I was trying to explain these ideas of cloud computing. And I got well and truly battered by the whole experience. And, you know, actually, edocs was my sort of me coming back trying to use the same kind of technology in the mobile space. But, you know, it’s, I guess, I got a long history and in this business of, you know, creating storage out there in cyberspace that people can use and applying cryptography and trying to make things run fast over the internet.

Jamie Burke 6:48
Yeah, I think also, just even from that story, you know, the experience of cycles, right? You’re trying to innovate in cycles. And there’s certainly lots of parallels there. I imagine with the crypto winter that we’ve emerged from, in 2020, preceding Ico mania of 2017. And similarly, lots of projects associated to crypto, especially in Europe, actually, were shunned. So I’m sure lots of that’s going to come through in the story. So infinity itself was speaking of timing was one of the first movers back in 2015. So just a year after Ethereum, maybe less in 2014. And was funded in hundreds of millions of dollars, backed by all the top tier VCs like COVID, poly chain, you name it, and that’s really allowed you the luxury but for some projects, that can be a curse of having a lot of capital to do very ambitious r&d. And so again, I want to talk about how you how you’ve avoided falling into the trap of, you know, having deep pockets. And at the same time, because of that being a first mover and this is one reason why I want you to show is you’ve obviously had to adapt and evolve just like Ethereum is with new contenders that are coming out with the benefit of a blank sheet of paper. So again, I think it’s going to be interesting to see how you’ve evolved definity. At the same time, you’re predating Crypto, one of the other startups that you’ve had, you’ve grown large user bases, including in a kind of consumer context. So you had a massively multiplayer, online game social network, which at one point had up to 3 million users from what I could gather, and was the fastest growing kids gaming in Europe, boys. Yeah, boys right before 2010. Equally, you’re an inventor of a number of what I’m assuming it patents, threshold relay chains, as well as other cryptosystems, validation towers, puzzle towers, etc. Clearly, yeah, those

Dominic Williams 9:02
those things, by the way, whenever patented. So there’s a lot of early work that I did that I think can be reapplied by people. And you know, at some point, I hope to sort of share it more broadly. Because it just the the nature of this industry, and you’re always kind of working on something and have no time. But and so a lot of the ideas are only shared, you know, back into 2014 2015. But and things like that, you know, there are there are early ideas like validation towers, for example, it could be more widely applied in crypto, I hope some of that early theoretical work will be reused more broadly.

Jamie Burke 9:39
Yeah. Well, I think that’s one of the most exciting things about web three is the fact that a lot of this innovation happens out in the open and it kind of compounds. The innovation is everybody can kind of borrow from adapt, evolve one of those innovations. So that’s great to hear. And, but before decentralisation, I guess was a theme You were already into exploring scalable systems in terms of distributed databases. And I believe you were mentioned in a Riley’s original definitive can Cassandra guide as as your claim to fame, obviously beyond what you’ve been doing with definity. So you mentioned some of the kind of earlier career highlights were that smart drives. Ad Ops, as I just mentioned, fight my monster. All of those you are founder and CEO. And then it looks like the kind of first at least explicit crypto project was at Mira labs, which was a short contract. But you were working on. We’re an early early pioneer in decentralised finance, I believe you worked on a proof of concept that was leveraging technology similar to what happens with the lightning network and the mirror assets. Right? Yeah, wow, you’re

Dominic Williams 11:01
well informed. So actually, what happened was, I was you know, moving away from that game, and looking to God to go do something new instead of 2013. And, you know, the April 2013 Bitcoin pump, if we can call, it went up to 230. dollars, caught my eye, and I’d heard about Bitcoin and had been in the kind of, you know, on the edge of my consciousness, and but I’d never never had time to look into it. Because I just been working so damn hard on whatever my car project was. And, in fact, back in 1999, when I was working on that smart trails project, and God smart drives is a terrible name now, isn’t it? It’s such a dated name, but anyway, with

Jamie Burke 11:46
a Z. Oh, by the way, yeah.

Dominic Williams 11:50
What I was working on this module is projects. And I, you know, I mentioned that I made the link secure by first having the client and server to do diffie Hellman key exchange. And then I encrypt everything symmetrically using blowfish. But I actually used a cryptography library called Crypto plus plus, which was produced by a guy called Wei Dai. So I used to go to this guy colorway dyes website. And he was an early Cypher punk and he was LinkedIn to how Finney and those other people that basically credit Bitcoin, and he had this paper called be money, which was pretty pretty as I was really a proposal, and it was very simple. But, you know, back at the time, I’d read it and reread it and sort of realised there was something intriguing that, but not really understood it. And, of course, those guys have been sort of talking about things like Bitcoin for years and years, my Bitcoin didn’t come out of nowhere. And so I didn’t have the context, it didn’t. Again, you know, I was focused on other things, and I was intrigued by, so I was sort of aware that something like that could be done, but you know, just never had the time. So in Bitcoin did that the timing was right. And very quickly, I was, you know, trading Bitcoin and getting involved. And, of course, I’m a very, I’m not a technical person. And you know, I have a strong academic background, computer science, undergraduate level, one surprises and so on. And interested in destructive computing and cryptography and things like that, and also performance. So with byte my monster, you know, we use Cassandra, in fact, by monster was the first sort of complex production, implementation of a system based on Cassandra. We did that walk Sandra’s. And besides Sandra, she lost 800,000 users data at one point, we had the Cassandra guys come in and recover it. But that was only part of the systems that Cassandra is a decentralised database that is very easy to scale. But I also had a game server that was horizontally scalable, and used a whole bunch of algorithms and systems that, you know, I designed and actually, that was my passion. You know, I very much enjoyed working on this computer game, and work with some brilliant people, but I was also absolutely obsessed with the systems behind it. So you know, I kind of been focusing on how you create things that scale for some years. And that was my passion. And obviously, had a history working with cryptography and things like that, too. And so when I saw Bitcoin, you know, very quickly, I became interested in how could the principles of Bitcoin be extended? And how can we create block chains that ran faster and could scale the number of transactions? So I, you know, I initially started looking at some of the existing systems try to do that one was called NXT.

Unknown Speaker 14:55
Yeah, yeah,

Dominic Williams 14:57
any proof of stake system. I mean, I started In looking at looking at it and Debian survey, what what, and then I found some sort of mysterious aspects to design. So for example, what they were doing was taking the hash of a block and using that to select the next, the validator that will produce the next block, they called the validator a forger. And they called the production of a block minting. And so I went to the forum and I raised the question Hey, guys, I don’t understand why can’t the current forger just choose the you know, rearrange the transactions to create a hash always re selects his own validator node, right? And they’re all very shifty. I wouldn’t really answer the question. And but but I kind of, you know, I innocently presumes, you know, that they were just not wanting to bother with this sort of duty and understand. And then there was this guy, there was this guy called, was he called he was named after a stop Star Trek character. And someone else called come from beyond anyway, come from beyond was the main architect of the system. And he started describing something that sounded very light lightning network. And I was intrigued, I felt that I had to be some way to have instantaneous transactions in a decentralised environment. And he kept on sort of teasing it for three months. And eventually, he came out and said, Look, you know, it was called transparent forging. And he said, transparent forging is, you know, doesn’t exist, and it won’t be possible, and till humanity learns, learns to trust each other. So I was very disappointed, obviously, at this point. And I thought, Okay, I think I better start designing this stuff myself from the ground up. I realised at that point that, you know, these guys were sort of just winging it, and the technology didn’t really work. And they were just sort of throwing stuff together and hoping they could solve problems later. So I actually spent all of 2014 researching how I could use techniques from the consensus branch of distributed computing and repurpose those techniques within the context of a decentralised network. And, you know, as using these like, in the end, I came up with a really cool framework, which repurpose like, you know, fully a synchronous leader free consensus, Byzantine fault tolerant consensus algorithms, and combine them with things like consistent broadcast all kinds of other things to credit credit, the design for blockchain, I called pebble and the papers out there floating around. Back then I was on this used group private news group called crypto finance. And there are a lot of people that are well known names on that now, like, you know, vitalik was on it, Nick Sabo was on it. And in concert joined, eventually sort of blew up in a flame war, nothing to do with me. But you share that paper, it was like 300 pages long describing this thing called pebble. And pebble was a novel cryptocurrency in many ways, it, it served a slightly different purpose. And I envisioned for example, supporting micro payments so that people could use micro payments from this block chain to get rid of advertising if they so wanted, and things like that. So, you know, it’s a different vision for for a blockchain based on very different science. And, you know, I said about trying to raise money for it with a guy called Atiyah, who currently works at affinity to remodel. And he’s actually been working at a VC called greycroft. That funded fight monster was one of the reasons I come to the US. So we tried raising funding anyway for this thing called pebble in 2014. And honestly, I mean, you know, people VCs would sort of look at look at us, like, we are mad, it was just too difficult to explain, nobody could, you know, grok this idea of a decentralised network and tokens that had value just from an existence inside the protocol. So that was, you know, we got near but we just couldn’t, couldn’t pull it off. And so I said that we sort of needed a tactical retreat, and I went back to my research. And funnily enough, you know, 2015, I sort of changed tack, you know, I was in communication with the Ethereum folks all during this period. And, you know, I became convinced that look, you know, Bitcoin was this interesting thing. It was just it was a cryptocurrency ledger. And even though I thought Bitcoin would be digital gold, I didn’t think it was going to be a new currency.

And I saw that aetherium was kind of something else altogether, you know, it could host these scripts. And I saw that there’s a fundamental shift happening where you know, Bitcoin, you have column which is three, quarter three, column ledger, the first column is the is the address. The second column is a balance of Bitcoin at that address. And the third column is an access control script. And basically now if you can unlock the access control scripts, you can move Bitcoin to new addresses, you can spend the Bitcoin. And I saw that a theorem was doing something very interesting. And he had the precursors to this, like master coin, and so on. But I ran over Bitcoin, essentially, you know, they were switching the order of the last two columns. So instead of having address balance of coins script, such that the scripts disappear whenever the coins move, now you have a dress script, coins, and the coins move between the scripts. And they created this highly programmable cryptocurrency with Turing complete scripting. And, you know, then the name world’s computer was used. And I looked at this, and I thought, wow, you know, this is amazing, like, we need to find a way to enable Ethereum to scale so that Android, increase his performance and make various other changes, so that a theorem can be the sort of backbone of the world’s computing infrastructure. Like, you know, Ethereum should be able to, you know, host the world’s software, the world’s data and all of its computations off, or in large part. And this will be on you know, because it’s a blockchain, it’s unstoppable, tamper proof, and you don’t need firewalls to protect hosted software. It’s obviously open, it’s far better than the world builds on something like that, then, you know, Amazon Web Services or some other big tech service. I mean, I could go on and on. And so at that time, you know, I’d started working with, you know, on a new sort of train of theoretical thought I was using BLS threshold cryptography to generate random numbers. And I could do that in a way in a decentralised network that didn’t involve consensus protocols. So I could create a stream of random numbers in a decentralised network. That was an manipulable unstoppable, and I’m predictable. And I didn’t, I could do that without very efficiently without running a consensus protocol. So I could get everyone to agree in this decentralised network on the sequence of numbers without running a consensus protocol. And I realised that I could use that sequence of random numbers to drive other protocols. And that that was a cool, special relay. And, you know, I’ve connected with Dan Bono, who’s one of the inventors of BLS threshold cryptography at Stanford, he had secure systems at Stanford, and he had confirmed various thinking I had, and I had a set of new, you know, new evolving visions about how infinitely scalable block chains could be developed. And in fact, we don’t use validation towers, but that that’s where they, you know, validation tats was a technique that I developed around that time to try and solve that problem. But you know, it wasn’t a it wasn’t a project, I had any intention of monetizing It was really a research project. And I was sort of hoping, I guess that it would be, you know, it could become a theorem 2.0 or a theorem 3.0. And, you know, I bet a lot of time discussing this kind of thing. With a theorem, folks, and you know, there was like a theorem circuit, and 2014 2015 and, you know, we sort of, there’s some travelling circus, went from place to place around the world, and there are lots of interesting discussions. But,

you know, over time, it became clear that the objectives and the visions were different and, you know, theorem would go its own way. And and so I, you know, at the time, I was sort of a bit beaten down onto pebble and I said, had to regroup. And you know, you’re quite right in 2015, I work at a place called mirror labs. And they were pursuing a vision that it actually started with xR Sabo for something called mirror assets. And I was dabbling, dabbling in that kind of stuff as well. After that, that I joined a guy called Tom ding. And we created this thing called string labs, which was an incubator for, you know, a boutique incubator for advanced decentralised technology projects. And initially, string labs was pursuing mirror assets and try to bring that to life. And then in early 2016, we realised Hey, look, you know, the regulatory environments just too tough. We’re not going to be able to do this given at least the limitations of a theorem, right? We’re just not going to be able to do this. And so I saw my chance and I proposed to ever and Look guys, this isn’t going to be possible for some years. You need a different decentralised platform to build something like this on. It’s too early, but why don’t we do definity, you know, and managed to persuade everyone at that point, you know enough finally we’ve got like a, you know, string labs was backed by you know several VCs it was VC funded and so all of a sudden now there was funding and so string labs then led the charge, you know, sort of helping as an incubator, bootstrap divinity and you know, we realised we have to create an organisation so on and they credit the definity foundation in Zurich originally is based in Zurich now, October I think it was October 2016. And then we run ran, I think pretty much the first decentralised fundraiser. Some people call it an Ico but I don’t like the term Ico because a lot of those things weren’t really decentralised. We ran a Gen, I believe, probably even to this day that the one and only truly decentralised fundraising fundraiser in February 2017. And the ambitions were very modest, you know, because, you know, we’ve been close to a theorem, a theorem money around 20 million, so our plan was okay, but we’ll do a seed round, we’ll raise a million dollars. And then once we’ve developed the prototype, and shown how this can work, we’ll raise $20 million. So we were, you know, really very naive, and, and I think nobody knew what was coming. And, you know, in the event, we raised to 3.9 million Swiss francs, and I was pleased it was seed money, you know, and, you know, raise the money in Swiss francs, but people donated in ether and Bitcoin and that went up in value. So, you know, we’ve got a great start in 2018, when we raised a lot of money from from hedge funds and VCs. But, you know, immediately after we’d done that fundraiser, that modest fundraiser and and by the way of people who participated in that seed round, and now looking at, you know, returns of 400 500 X, you know, then all of a sudden, the sort of the whole kind of market changed and people became much more cynical. And, you know, taze us ran like a six week Ico, like the definity decentralised fundraiser last 24 hours, you know, it was accelerating towards the end. So anybody watching it would have seen that there was a huge appetite out there on the internet worldwide to invest in these kind of things. But, you know, yeah, we basically said once we’ve raised a million dollars, we’re turning this off after 24 hours, and we raised 3.9. But after that, you know, all of a sudden, there was this explosion, and everyone was like now we’re just going to collect. Now we’ve seen that’s the case, you know, that we’re just going to collect as much money as we can. And so tasers started off with their six week Ico. And then of course, the notorious EOS Ico year long Icos was kicked off, and they collected like some $4 billion. And so yeah, you know, we’re, we’re, we’re much more naive, and, and less cynical about the whole thing.

Jamie Burke 28:06
So it’s interesting, you know, obviously, the the internet computer is your kind of moniker, it’s, it’s the way that you describe the kind of mission or the kind of key innovation and obviously, you know, many people will be familiar with the world computer, as was kind of initially stated by Ethereum. So what’s, what’s the same? And what’s different in the vision? Not necessarily technically, but in the vision itself?

Dominic Williams 28:33
Well, I mean, I mean, first of all, you know, I believe that the internet is a half finished project. I, you know, I first you know, got involved in the internet and programming, internet systems, you know, central district computing, back and I suppose, you know, 92. And, yet eyes, like anyone at that time, just, you know, bowled over by the possibilities, and I remember, you know, using Mosaic, and which was, of course, credit by Andreessen and all that kind of stuff. And people forget that, you know, the internet was, it cost a lot of money to develop. There are a lot of smart people involved in developing the internet and TCP IP and so on. And the funding came from a number of sources, but a lot of it came from, you know, DARPA, for example, you know, defence advance projects, research agency, whatever it is. And the objective was to create communications network that could continue functioning in the event of a nuclear strike. And I actually think that objective is still very important. You know, we need humanities in infrastructure to be anti fragile, to be indestructible especially, it’s Concerns computing, um, look, the population, the world’s population right now 7.8 billion people, there is no way that population can be supported without an incredible level of automation. So, you know, we know that, for example, you know, we have zero day inventory at supermarkets. And there’s a hugely complex supply chain that is operated by computers, that makes all that possible. If you took the computers away, the future, literally the food chain would break down. And that gives you an idea of how important all this is. And we need the internet to be highly resilient. But we also need, you know, our software and data to be highly resilient, especially because automation is becoming ever more complex, and evermore essential. And, you know, I still think it’s credible that somebody could fly an aeroplane into a hyperscale data centre, one of Amazon’s hyperscale data centres, and they try to hide the locations, but you can easily find them on Google, I think it’s credible that, you know, someone could let off atomic bomb, and hopefully, it’ll never happen. But these black swan events do occur. Moreover, I mean, you know, there’s a thing called the Carrington event where a solar flare freidel, the telegraph lines, and back in 1875, or something like that, some dates roughly correct. And a similar event would would fry data centres. And in fact, again, you can find this out on, you know, get the details on Wikipedia, the solar flare of equal strength, passed through Earth’s orbit just a few years ago, we missed it by just a few days. So I think we’re taking a lot of risks with the current centralised, hyperscale data centre, model, things can go wrong at a technical level. And so I think that it’s not enough for the internet just to be a network. So I think there’s an inevitable evolution of the internet, which extends the internet from just being a network to being, you know, the internet computer, which is network plus compute. And so, first of all, just with respect to the safety of humanity, which depends upon critical software, and data not disappearing, and continuing to run, we need to see that evolution. So I sort of want to, you know, see that happen. And for those reasons, and that’s why we talk about the internet computer. Now. And it’s not just about that. I’ve also been writing software for a very long time, you know, I was programming is that x 81. In 1981, I think the most memory you could put into it was 64 kilobytes.

My parents wouldn’t buy me a computer, it was at school, and I used to write down programmes and basic on paper, and then I’d get, you know, access to it for half an hour or something like that. And I get my piece of paper out and type in my programme. And, of course, being a child, I just wanted to create games, and I, you know, I really admired those Space Invader programmes. So I create my own variations on that. Um, but you know, I’ve been, I’ve got a lot of experience with computers, I’ve coded just about every different kind of system you can imagine. And I’ve felt for a very long time that there are issues with the way our platforms work, and the complexity and the insecurity and the fragility and, indeed, software itself. And so the internet computer goes, you know, a long way to addressing some of that it tries to create a final a final platform for humanity to build on. So it does a lot of very interesting things. Yeah, first of all, it provides, you know, good performance, and in some respects, and in some areas, it can outperform the legacy it stack, you know, hyperscale data centre, with, you know, databases and memcached and all that kind of stuff and load balancing plus CDN or whatever else, you know, the internet computer will be able to outperform that legacy it and add in some respects, so that’s important, but it’s much more than that. We sort of reimagined software and starting with smart contracts, and, you know, when I was looking at Ethereum, I know notice that some of these properties, right, so obviously, you know, you’re kind of writing your smart contracts into cyberspace. So that’s the internet computer vision to write your code into cyberspace and the data lives out there. But we’re the theory of it’s actually faked. But I saw that there’s no notion of a file system on a theorem, um, or even have a database. And, you know, solidity gives you the impression that data lives in the variables. Now, I thought that’s very cool. Natural fact solidity fakes it. And as you know, I’m sure that solidity uses these sort of EBM instructions as store and s load to store individual 256 byte chunks, and sorry, 256 bit chunks in the sort of localised database underneath it all. But um, I thought, Well, okay. Wouldn’t it be great if he just get rid of all of that, and the one files and the one databases and people just wrote code, and you could just sort of boil down code to its purest form, and so on the internet computer. You know, data lives in a programme has variables, objects, collections, and data types. And in actual fact, a software canister contains two things. It’s a very simple thing contains webassembly bytecode, which you can compile down from any language. At the moment the definity foundations SDK supports Rasta motoko, and you compute a language that our languages team has developed. And it contains these webassembly, this webassembly bytecode and the memory pages, that byte code runs, and each canister can hold up to four gigabytes of memory pages. And the design works in such a way that these these canisters are sonicwall software actor, which provides for concurrency. And you now have a you providing developers with a great experience because they’re just writing code, and then data persists automatically, magically, they can forget about shuffling data in and out of files and databases. And without going into the details, that also means we can provide great performance. And now all of a sudden, you get a different paradigm like you know, look. Traditional, traditionally, a software programme or system has always been limited by the memory on the computer that it runs on. And obviously over time, that’s increased enormously, like, you know, hardware gets cheaper back in 1981, when I was programming on his edX 81, looking at 64 kilobytes, mine didn’t even have that much. That was the maximum amount of memory. Currently, my MacBook Pro I’m using right now has 30 gig of memory. And I would have got the 60 gig one, but they didn’t have it in the Apple store when I went there. So no, you go from 64 kilobyte to 60 gig, that’s an increase of a million times the memories increased enormously, yet still, you still can sometimes push the limits of that. And

you know, you’re limited by how much physical memory there is on one computer. And all of your sort of system code and the memory it uses has to fit inside that. And you know, there are virtual memory systems, they have things like the swap desk, but still fundamentally, you’re limited by the physical memory on this one device on the internet computer. And you build software systems, if you need to, from multiple actor objects, which canisters, right, and each object comes with its own memory. So each object can, you know, store up to four gigabytes of data, some of them are much smaller, some of them are only a few kilobytes. So it’s a different model, rather than all your, all the objects in your system sort of running in the same memory space. Now each object comes with with up to four gigabytes of memory pages of it. And each in each object can interact with it with other objects by calling their functions, right and sharing functions and so on. But each object only directly access is that in memory. And this provides a foundation for code that scales. So we began demonstrating, it’s like, you know, you can have a collection like a map hash map or something that can hold exabytes of data. So you know, to create a data store that would hold you know, a seven and a 7.8 billion profiles like a profile for everybody on Earth. You could just sort of go there’s, I think, a big map, it’s a library, we develop internally, you just, you know, just go sort of like, hey, let’s map equals new big map. And then you’re literally just going you know, Mac angle brackets, Joe equals his profile, you know, map angle brackets, Jamie equals your profile, map angle bracket storm equals my profile. You can do that for everybody on Earth right now, you you’ve got this thing that looks like it’s in memory, isn’t memory, right? But it can store exabytes of objects. So you sort of have this unlimited memory space. And this is this whole thing called orthogonal persistence. And so as it turns out, this approach also works very well in conjunction with the internet computers own architecture, which is constantly spinning up these block chains, which are called subnets. And using this thing called key chain technology, that that allows them to communicate directly without having to have copies of each other’s data. That’s, of course, why we have so many, the world’s leading cryptographers on the team. And, you know, because the communication between these, these canisters as a synchronous, like when one canister calls another canister is actually a synchronous, even if the high level programming language hides that. And you know, you make a call to another canister, the sort of handler for the result remains in memory. And when the message comes back, you know, it’s it’s invoked. So, yeah, it all kind of worked out beautifully, really. And the vision is, isn’t just about you know, our vision is much bigger than blockchain. When we talk to mainstream media, we don’t even use the word blockchain because it confuses people because it because they hold these preconceptions blockchain slow. And, you know, blockchain can’t scale and so on, or it’s an immutable log of transactions back to Genesis. And, you know, none of these things are true, as concerns the internet computer. And, you know, our vision is much, you know, bigger that when we’re thinking about where we’re focus, you know, what we’re not trying, we’re not thinking about trying to compete, say, with a theory in our pocket or something like that, you know, we’re thinking about how do we get the whole world building on the internet computer? And how do we move people away from legacy it and, and convince them to stop building on things like Amazon Web Services, and using databases and memcached and file systems and firewalls or lateral? Old school stuff?

Jamie Burke 41:50
Yeah. And so you said that the premise is that this has created this high performance hyperscale internet service, and I believe, in less than 1000 lines of code. And so the premises that that then enables open Internet services. So could you talk us through that future? the use cases that will be possible, and the characteristics that they would have? That wouldn’t currently be possible?

Dominic Williams 42:17
Sure, sure. It’s actually, you I think, in practice, of course, you know, any high school internet service would would, would involve more than 1000 lines of code, because you’re going to add all kinds of polishes to the user experience, right, that will extend the code base. But yeah, you know, you can create something like kancan, which is our tic toc clone, in less than 1000 lines of code. And that’s because, you know, you can do things like I just described, where, you know, just just just create a hash collection, and, and, you know, like a, and just put as much data into it as you like. And that’s very different to using the legacy it stack. You know, I mean, there’s an IT, systems like Facebook, and even tik tok are extraordinarily complex behind the scenes. And so yeah, we do vastly simplify that. But look, our vision is, you know, we’d started with a clean sheet of paper. And we’ve applied enormous amount of learnings in the design of internet computer, and a lot of advanced computer science. So what is the vision? Why is the internet computer bad? Well, it turns out an awful lot of reasons. I mean, first of all, we just think all things being equal, people will, in the end, prefer to build on the internet. Rather than build on legacy proprietary, you know, closed proprietary systems, like Amazon Web Services, essentially, if you’re building an Amazon Web Services, you’re a captive customer, customer, and they, they’re going to monetize you, and they’re going to make it very difficult for you to leave. Um, so I think, you know, the internet’s a shelling point, people, we’re gonna, we’re gonna prefer to build on the internet. And if they do, that, they’re not capture customers, and they can interoperate more easily and just just for the same kind of reasons that, you know, back in the day, in the early 90s, you know, you had like America Online and compuserve and Microsoft talking about the information superhighway and petitioning the government to allow them to build that. You know, in the end, people just prefer to use the, the open Internet, which provide this kind of this open permissionless marketplace. Let you know, if I build a system on the internet, and you build a system on the internet, we’re competitors. I can’t phone up the owner of the internet and say, Hey, I’ll give you some stock in my company, if you should, if you slow down Jamie’s company, right. And that’s such an important facet of provides incredibly strong foundation for an open marketplace and economic growth. And, you know, the internet became kind of Field of Dreams for that reason. So I think for that same reason, you know, the internet computer is a natural place long time, but, you know, we that’s, that’s not all. So, next thing you know, it’s unstoppable that can withstand a nuclear strike and your system can be unstoppable to it’s tamper proof. You know, and your system can be tamper proof, you don’t need to protect your system using firewalls, and security is an increasing issue. I mean, you know, all kinds of, for example, organisations and, you know, local governments are being affected by ransomware, you know, hackers are getting in and encrypting all this service and demanding Bitcoin to decrypt them. And, you know, people are embarrassed, so they often don’t admit to it, but oftentimes you see it like, you know, Travelex was down, I think, earlier this year, or last year or something, you know, this is huge numbers of his attacks going on. And of course, you know, theft of personally identifiable information. For instance, you know, a lot of you know, very valuable trade secrets have been stolen and reused to the fact that to the tune of hundreds of billions, or even trillions of dollars as a result of the insecurity of legacy it so, you know, the fact that the internet computers tamper proof, and you need a firewall, and so on to make it secure, that’s a huge advantage. So and, and, of course, you know, it reimagined software. So I think, for a lot of the next generation, building on the internet computer very much will be very exciting because they get a better software model. And they and you know, canisters on the internet computer can serve user experiences directly, to end users to put into browsers on smartphones. So it’s just a one stop shop, like the developer of tomorrow will just write code to the internet, right? And they’ll laugh if you tell them you have to get an account on Amazon Web Services, learn how to use it relational database, like Postgres, and accelerate it, or put it up in a master slave configuration to make it scale, accelerate it with mem cache, protect it with a firewall, you know, the last few out of time, I’ll just say, why am I gonna do that? I’m just gonna write code to the internet computer. But what are the reasons for entrepreneurs to start building on the internet computer now when, you know, we’re still early in the cycle in a way? Okay. So, the reason I think that entrepreneurs should stop building on the internet computers, because it’s, it supports something called Open Internet services.

Open Internet services, are built using autonomous software. And they run as part of the fabric of the internet autonomously. And they’re controlled by tokenized governance system. And this gives them a huge number of advantages, and also gives entrepreneurs who are building them, or teams of developers, that are building them a huge number of advantages. In some ways, you can think of open Internet services as being a kind of open source equivalent to, you know, for a running running service. But you know, there’s that it’s not quite, that’s not quite an accurate analogy. So, you know, they’re composed from autonomous code, and they’re controlled, configured and upgraded. By a token I open tokenized governance system. So first things first, if you’re an entrepreneur, what do you need, you need funding? Actually, and I can attest to this, I’m here in Palo Alto right now, you know, the world is very different for entrepreneurs has Silicon Valley, it’s very, very difficult to raise funding, and oftentimes the investors that you get, just kind of like bozos, you know, they come from backgrounds that don’t really equip them to, you know, support the, the companies they invest in, and oftentimes, they become quite destructive, because they don’t understand, you know, they come from backgrounds, which make them focus on the bottom line early, too early, they don’t understand the importance of scaling fast. And the moment anything goes wrong, they sort of, you know, demand things are done, as they would do them, which oftentimes is antithetical to the way you actually need to run a successful technology startup. So you know, you’ve got this jewel problem, you can’t raise money. And if you do raise money, oftentimes investors won’t be that great, they’ll be the wrong kind of investors. So what do you do? If you’re an if you’re an open Internet entrepreneur, you’d create an open Internet service. And, you know, when you you know, you build a prototype, flick a switch, the internet computer will create an open tokenized governance system and assign all your canisters in that internet service to the open tokenized governance system. And it will give you as the founder or billion governance tokens, you receive all billion governance tokens. And your objective is to, you know, over time, solos to raise money to fund development, and obviously, you share them amongst team members and things like that. And you know, as an individual, you should aim to have, you know, really 10 to 15% maximum. By the time this thing reaches scale to ensure that it really is an Have an internet service. But you know, by selling these tokens, you can you can raise money and the internet computer has financial frameworks that enable you to do that from anywhere in the world. Right? So, you know, 99% of the world’s talent, at least exists outside of Silicon Valley. Imagine, imagine that 99% of the world’s talent exists outside of Silicon Valley. So, you know, imagine you’re an AI going back to, you know, once I used to work with a team of developers in Tomsk, Siberia, it’s actually Doc, six months of the year there, and they have these amazing teams of developers who are really talented. But you know, you try being a team of developers and top Siberia or an entrepreneur and top Siberia, and you try raising venture capital, it’s almost impossible. And if you’re unlucky you

you raise your raise your investment of someone is not going to give you a very good deal at all, it might be quite scary. So you know, the internet computer provides an amazing opportunity to too talented teams around the world and places like that to raise money and fund what they’re doing. So that’s the first thing. Okay, the second question, is that any entrepreneur last? Because why would I build an open Internet service? How is this going to enable me to compete? Well, I mean, I’ve just covered that, you know, you by building on the internet computer, you get on scalability, security, a better software model that can enable you to create a hyper scale internet service with far fewer lines of code. That’s all great, but there’s much more, much, much more. So let’s think about this. Let’s think about how we might create, for example, an equivalent to Uber competitive Uber and Lyft called Open rights. Okay, well, first of all, an open Internet services are autonomous. And in a sense, it’s like its own blockchain. So that means it can use tokenization strategies. So I would recommend that anybody creating open rides, open rides as a, as an alternative to Uber and Lyft. Uses tokenization to incentivize early riders and early drivers. So you know, why not give away governance tokens in open rides, early riders and early drivers, and let them become owners, and, you know, go into a city like San Francisco, and, you know, take rides on Uber and Lyft. And evangelise it to get traction. And explain explain to the drivers Look, if you if you read every single time you give a ride on on overrides, you know, you’re going to receive in addition to your payment for your services, in addition to that, you’re gonna receive governance tokens, you’re gonna become a part owner of this thing, and be rewarded for helping get the system off off the ground. So that’s pretty cool. Secondly, you know, an open Internet service is autonomous, it runs as part of the fabric of the internet, you can’t really attack the fabric of the internet. Now, you know, Uber, one of the reasons Ubers costs are so high, is that it has to negotiate with all of these local government borders that oftentimes are in the pocket of the local taxi monopolies. And it’s extraordinarily expensive, oftentimes, they have to go through the courts to gain the right to operate in, in various areas. And, for example, they have beaten out of China by Didi and the politics there. So what advantages override several guests Well, I will, for example, let’s talk about my hometown in, you know, in my hometown in the UK. I it’s very frustrating, Uber is still not allowed to operate there. And I and a few years ago, I came out of a place it was pouring with rain, realised I couldn’t call Uber had her run half a mile to, you know, taxi rank and, you know, ended up getting totally soaked. It’s ridiculous. And, and the local council, of course, it’s sort of bamboo, but then, okay, so let’s imagine you’ve got open rights. Well, how is that same local council gonna ban open rights? There’s no organisation that they can attack. It’s essentially, you know, a protocol itself. It runs as part of the internet. Yeah, sure. It says it’s a service built from software, right running in the internet computer, but what is that? It’s ultimately no different to bitcoins on the Bitcoin ledger. In the Bitcoin scripts, it’s just a very advanced evolution of it. And, you know, you can’t attack it any more than you can sue the Bitcoin ledger. So, you know, I suppose one thing you could do is to try and find out who the early riders and drivers were and sue them. But in practice, that’s too difficult. So that’s a huge, huge advantage. Let’s think of something like open photos. So I don’t know if anyone has seen the recent changes with Google Photos. Google originally said, you know, they were going to give everyone this free storage, and they were never going to lock you in. That was their sort of pledge, we’re never going to lock you in. So rather predictively with big tech, you know, even with Google,

recently, they stopped allowing you to sync your photos, your Google Photos to your hard drive. Right. So that was stage one, they’ve locked everybody in, admittedly, if you want to, you can go, you can, you know, go to Google Photos online, and go photo by photo 3000s of photos, individually downloading them. But obviously, no one’s going to do that. So now, you know, they’ve done their first big tech move of locking us and they promised they wouldn’t. And now of course, they’ve announced that the storage will no longer be free, and they’re going to start charging soon. And, okay, so that’s a kind of bad system. And you know, increasingly, and this is happening with iCloud, too, and so on. And people are finding that, you know, for example, a relative has a lot of family photos, and the relative gets ill in hospital for a long time, maybe they, you know, disabled and their credit card expires, or they even die, and finding that you know, the photographs disappear with. And this is really tragic and horrible. So, let’s think how we can make open photos on the internet computer better. Okay. So first of all, we can use DeFi, we can enable people to make a deposit once that pays for, say, a terabyte of photo storage for all time for eternity. Okay, how does that work? Well, obviously, what you do is you say, Look, you’re going to deposit this amount of money, you turn it into some kind of token like ICP, and then you’d use that in a margin lending scheme, something like compound dollars, right? So you’d lend those tokens out, essentially, to people who want to go short, and earn interest on them. And that interest would pay for the hardware and, of course, the underlying hardware, or not the hardware directly, but you know, the space on the internet computer, obviously, that gets will continue to get less expensive over time. So you know, it’s great. Now all of a sudden, open fighters can say to people, hey, you know, you can make a deposit of a very reasonable amount. And for that you get a terabyte of storage for eternity. That’s pretty cool. Secondly, think about the security aspect of all of this. You may have heard that recently, just a couple of weeks ago, I think it was some white hat hackers got into Apple, they were invited to try and they got in, they found they could see everything, everything on iCloud. They also found actually, they could push software updates to macro pros and iPhones, which is very scary. But let’s just talk about the iCloud piece for a moment. Like today, you know, people have private photographs in their archives they don’t want on the internet. These guys could see everybody’s iCloud photos. I don’t know how many people have photos on iCloud, but it’s probably hundreds of millions. So open photos, of course is built on the internet computer. It doesn’t work like a normal blockchain. Not only is it tamper proof, but you can make data private, and gain a far far higher level of confidence that your photographs will never fall into the hands of hackers. Right? Especially because you’re accessing open photos, using you know, something like webauthn saying about the secure hardware that inside MacBooks and iPhones and pixels and other devices that know the secure chips that hold your private key and things like that. So you can you can be sure that you know, your private photographs won’t end up on the internet one day. Lastly, the internet computer does something very important. And it’s actually probably the most important feature in some ways, but it’s difficult to explain, but I’ll have a go. The Internet computer makes it possible for software to share functionality and data in a trustless way. What that means is something called service composability. It’s possible. This is enabled by something called permanent API’s that enable a software interface that’s shared today. decorated with this permanent keyword

and such that any future upgrades to the software and will fail if they remove that function. That’s the first part. So, you know, if you’ve got an open Internet service like open photos controlled by open tokenized governance system, you know, it’s you know, that tokenized governance system is still adopting software updates and pushing them right. Once open photos is declares an API that enables people with permission to access some users photographs, that API cannot be removed. Now, you might say, Well, what happens if the tokenized governance system turns evil, and degrades the functionality behind the API, so the actual function call stays there, but the actual processing performed by the function no longer does what it’s meant to? Well, actually, the internet computer, if it’s an open Internet service, internet computer as a way of fixing that, somebody can put a proposal into the network nervous system, which manages the overall internet computer network, and the network nervous system can force the open governance system of open photos to reverse changes. Now, this is extraordinarily important, because we’re seeing the breakdown of while MLC, it’s already the dream of the programmableweb authority long that ships long sales. And, you know, back, you know, 10 years ago, we all thought that everybody would be building new services by incorporating the functionality and data of existing services, right. But there were some early warning signs, like, you know, zinger, even though as a public company, you know, had built games on the Facebook platform. And, you know, very successful things like Farmville, Facebook, just decided to change the rules in you know, they wanted a bigger slice of revenues, and they weren’t gonna make it difficult, for more difficult to, for games like Zynga to market his games without paying the more money and so on. And, you know, after that happened, you know, zingers shares fell at 5% price. But, you know, this is a very, very widespread thing. I mean, I’m looking at LinkedIn or LinkedIn, something, I know that very well, because I knew of a very successful company that built on top of LinkedIn API’s, it was called relate IQ, and it created a communications map. You know, it could slot into your email and messaging and things like that. And credit communications map for your company was really cool. But you know, if you look to the communications map, and you hold it over the versus, you know, the points a little professional profile pop up, where the professional profile come from, came from LinkedIn, because LinkedIn in the early days in order to gain traction and grow, created this API that allowed other services to incorporate professional profiles, right. And a lot of startups, I’m sure, like, thousand startups, at least that built on top of these API’s, treated LinkedIn, just like a database, or professional profiles. And so they were directing people to LinkedIn, like, yeah, you know, you want to store professional profile, you know, enter here kind of thing. And this helps LinkedIn grow enormously in the early days. But remember, the big tech model always tends towards monopoly, you know, monopolisation, and monopoly tactics. So at some point in 2014 2015, I forget, you know, Microsoft bought LinkedIn. And guess what they revoked everyone’s API access. And with a few exceptions, like Salesforce CAPTCHA, so this company related IQ, was actually a unicorn is worth at $1.2 billion. It was based in downtown Palo Alto by the fountain. And they, they had brilliant investors. You know, everything was right about this venture, but there was nothing they could do. And they had to sell themselves to Salesforce and a fire sale because Salesforce kept the

LinkedIn API access so that their service would continue working. And I think now it’s called Salesforce IQ. And that’s the logo, you see if you get down to the fountain in Palo Alto. Now, I think they sold for 300 million. And that sounds like oh, you know, boohoo poor entrepreneurs. But actually, if you dig in, more, it’s not so good. You know, I think they’d raise 200 and 40 million, you know, with VCs, you have to think about liquidation preference, you have to pay back the 200 and 40 million before you share the proceeds of the sale. So that leaves 60 million. And there were two founders, they probably had 30%, I’m guessing, I don’t know. So that’s 20 million to share 10 million each, then you have to pay transaction costs and legal fees. You know, these these dudes, they probably ended up with, like $5 million, each off to building a unicorn. Now, look, for most entrepreneurs, being an entrepreneur is a tough, tough job, right? You’ll have a lot of failures. And you’ll experience a lot of bumps in the road and twists and turns. And you have to work extraordinarily hard, stressful, even if it’s rewarding. And, you know, if you succeed and build a unicorn, you don’t walk away $5 million. It’s just not fair. Right? So that’s the risk you take in today’s big tech monopolistic system, you can’t really compete anymore. And even VCs know this, they’re always wanting to know, like, you know, what’s the platform risk? You know, what’s the risk that someone in big tech could just switch you off, if they want to force you to sell to them or to close you down? Because they think you’re competing. And, you know, release IQ, or at least they got some accent, I suppose. And but, you know, hundreds of startups went to the wall, and just their services just disappeared. Because, essentially, you know, LinkedIn switched off the API’s. Now. Yeah, sure. That’s the model today, the model today or has been, you know, you, it, you know, you identify a niche, you recklessly scale in Silicon Valley, if you’ve got access to capital. And once you’ve secured the niche, or niche, as you call it in America, you basically hijack all the data and use it right, you switch off all the API’s. And that’s why the programmable web is dead, but it’s going to be reborn on the internet computer. So okay, so what does this mean? Okay, it’s actually incredibly important. Let’s think about open photographs, open photos, much more catchy, open photos, can create API’s that allow other entrepreneurs and other services to extend the functionality and do cool things with the user’s photographs if they’ve got permission. So what does that mean in practice, that means that open photos will very quickly host and far more fun things like image filters. And, and the users of open photos will soon find there are lots of fun ways they can use their photographs, the far exceed what you can do on Google Photos, right. And so in the end, you know, these permanent API’s, again, to create a much more dynamic, innovative collaborative ecosystem, where people are able to, you know, compose each other’s functionality and data without trusting each other, they don’t have to trust that, hey, if I build on this API, I could be wrecked later on when they’ve reached a certain scale. And they’ve decided they don’t want to, they don’t need the network effects anymore. And we call these things mutual eyes network effects. And we think in the end, you know, consumers are going to much prefer this open ecosystem, because it’s gonna be far richer, and more dynamic. And participants won’t be able to succeed just by hijacking user data.

They’re gonna have to keep on innovating. Right? So I think that, you know, that’s important. Finally, of course, you know, tokenization can be used in very, very sophisticated ways we’ve got one of our sample apps is called Can Can, can can is a tick tock clone. And we originally had something called LinkedIn, for reasons that I’ve alluded to, but we actually started creating a single cam cam, which is a tic toc clone. The reason we did that is we wanted to address preconceptions, you know, we wanted to show how, you know, vast quantities of user data can be uploaded to the internet computer, which is a blockchain system under the skin, you know, all the data stored on chain, our computation is on chain. And not only that, that, you know, the the internet computer can stream video directly back to consumers eases reverse gas model, so you don’t need tokens to interact with it. And that’s why we did it. But now we’re moving on to the next phase now have shown that and what the next phase is tokenization. So, you know, again, open Internet services run as part of the fabric of the internet. There, Thomas there, like many block chains, and that means you can introduce tokenization. So how would you use it in a in a consumer app like Tick Tock or khanqah? Well, this is how we did it, we introduced the notion of super likes, every user on can can, will have up to 10 Super likes, every 24 hours. And the objective is to Super like things that you think are going to go viral. Now, whenever a video goes viral, and gets now a very large number of users can can look so the order in which super likes were made. Right? It looks at the order in which super likes are made. And people that super liked early on, and participate in far greater extent in a reward points shower, right? So can can dropsies reward points on the people that superlight that video that became viral early on. Now why do you want reward points, this is where it gets cool. Every few days can can have a drop day, a drop day. And on a drop day. You can exchange your rewards reward points with kancan governance tokens. So you can become an owner in a sense, and as much as you can become an owner of something on a blockchain in cyberspace. And you can kind of become you know, an owner of course, if you wanted to just resell those governance tokens for money. So that’s the first thing you can do. You can exchange your award points for governance tokens. Secondly, sponsors offer prizes so you can imagine some you know, trendy clothing manufacturer like bait Offering sneakers and hoodies and things like that, there’s prizes, and you can swap, you know, your rewards points for those prizes. And then the sponsor can reuse the rewards points to pay for advertising. Right. And then finally, if you’ve got rewards points, you can use them to tip other users using red letters. So you know, if you’re watching somebody, you know, you know, doing some kind of crazy Paul call extreme sports, or someone doing a silly dance, you can show your appreciation by pressing the red, the red, that’s a button and sending them reward points. So we think that makes something that’s a much more compelling proposition. I mean, you, there’s so many pieces to this, right, you know, if you’re an entrepreneur, you can raise money through tokenization, by building an open Internet service, you’re going to cut down on the amount of work you got to do to build it enormously, you’ve got an unstoppable system, that secure new software model that reduces the lines of code you have to write to create something that’s hyperscale can become hyper scale. And then you’ve got all these additional clever things you can do that you can use tokenization in really clever ways, imaginative ways to make your application Far, far more addictive, or drive adoption. So you know, I’ve just described how you could, you know, can can, the tick tock clone uses it to make users tokenisation to make more viral. But earlier, we were talking about, you know, open rides, and how that that could gain, you know, use tokenization to gain traction by giving tokens to early riders and drivers. Additionally, you know, you can share these API’s, these permanent API’s, that other services and other entrepreneurs and other open tokenized governance systems don’t have to trust, because they’re non revocable, you can’t even if even if you degrade the functionality, or you’ll be faster to reverse that. And that means, you know, you can get better network effects with the help of other other teams, because you know, they can extend the functionality of what you’re offering, create something that’s propositions even more valuable

for the user, you can integrate with DeFi. So we’ve talked about that, you know, with open photos, you know, where somebody can make a deposit, and they get a terabyte of photo storage, forever, you know, that, like an eternal thing, it’ll be there on the internet forever. So, you know, there’s just so many ways that, of course, by the way, the other one I’m not touched on at all, is, you know, note the name, open tokenized governance system is transparent. So, you know, if you go and build, like open social, or some kind of Facebook competitor, you know, people can see the code you’re pushing and things like that. And they can see that you’re not doing anything nefarious, like, you know, we keep discovering things like more and more horrors in Facebook, obviously, you know, the Cambridge analytical scandal is well known. And only recently, we discovered zoom, was exporting all its users data to Facebook, right? users will get a lot of comfort just to see that that that I kind of things know going on, you can create much more sophisticated community based and content moderation systems, where you know, if somebody likes or doesn’t like content, they can add their own content content to a fact checking list. And that’s obviously a complex subject we’ve got time for, but there’s so much you can do. So it’s not just about, you know, what we tried very hard to do. Now, the projects, obviously, a massive one. And we’ve spent a lot of money on r&d, and continue to spend a lot of money on r&d and continue to have to expand the r&d effort. We want to spend billions of dollars in r&d. But we’ve got to, you know, we’ve we’ve now created this, this network that can scale out provides good performance and do this kind of stuff. And it’s already extraordinarily compelling, like, you know, we’re giving now we think there are good reasons to build on the internet rather than on these closed proprietary systems like Amazon, and Azhar and Google and so on, anyway, but even separately, to why you want to build on the open Internet, rather than on those closed for project platforms. You know, there’s a pantheon of reasons. Everything from you know, you got a new revolutionary new software model reduced lines of code necessary to build a hyper scale internet service. Right away through all of the different compelling ways you can make your open Internet service better give users something better than these monopolistic big tech and things that for the most part now have stopped innovating. Like you know, when do you see new features in Gmail? I mean, come on. It’s been the same for like a decade because they don’t need to do anything they’ve already established a monopolistic position. The Internet computer Well, on the open Internet generally, I think it’s going to completely change that. Fantastic. Great. Well,

Jamie Burke 1:15:05
I mean, look, it’s great to hear of different approaches being taken to what is ultimately the same vision. I think the thing that unites us all, whatever you call it, whether it’s web three or something else, is the one that you outlined. And I think that’s something that we can all share and the more approaches to tackle that the better as far as I’m concerned. So Dominic, it’s been a pleasure having you on the show. I look forward to seeing your progress. Brilliant.

Dominic Williams 1:15:31
Thank you for having me.

Jamie Burke 1:15:34
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