podcasts

The Importance of Data Infrastructure for Web 3, with Yaniv Tal of The Graph

podcasts

The Importance of Data Infrastructure for Web 3, with Yaniv Tal of The Graph

November 2020

Posted by

Roland Spencer

Creative Producer

Roland has spent his career working in documentary and commercial content production, focusing on emerging technology and socially conscious brands, including Formula E, ABB, Shell e-Power, NASA, and more....read more

Yaniv, co-founder of The Graph Protocol, talks about the importance of making sure the full Web 3 stack is as decentralised as possible, the indexing and querying of data, and how The Graph as a solution also removes the burden for DApp builders of hosting their own data infrastructure – therefore ultimately improving the DApp user experience to a Web 2 equivalence.

Posted by Roland Spencer - November 2020

November 2020

Posted by

Roland Spencer

Creative Producer

Roland has spent his career working in documentary and commercial content production, focusing on emerging technology and socially conscious brands, including Formula E, ABB, Shell e-Power, NASA, and more....read more

Listen on iTunes

Jamie Burke 0:13
You’re an early stage web three founder apply to our award winning accelerator programme base camp at Outlier ventures.io slash base camp, we write your first $50,000 check and give you access to 200 mentors, including many of the leading web three founders, and a network of 1000s of the world’s leading investors and exchanges. We’ve helped over 30 startups from 15 countries from all around the world, raise 100 and $30 million in growth funding. It can help you fast track product market fit and where relevant the launch of your token economy. Today, I’m really happy to welcome Jeff towel of the graph and described as API’s for a vibrant decentralised future. The graph is an indexing protocol for querying networks like blockchain, such as Ethereum, but also storage networks, like ipfs, anybody can build and publish open API’s called sub graphs, we’re going to get into a little bit what that means later, and making data accessible. So the reasons why I wanted you on the show, there’s been a load of buzz around the graph over the last year, but kind of, especially most recently, and you’ve been winning a lot of key respected players in the web three space like uniswap, synthetix, decentraland, Aragon, with a wide spectrum of use case, you’ve been backed by coin base, VC, multi coin, coin fund, all very technical VC. So I think you know that that carries a lot of weight, certainly, in my book. And on the one hand, your mission is to allow for this true interoperable web three stack. And I, you know, obviously, multi chain is universe is very important to that. And this is an increasing theme, towards the end of 2020. And I think going into 21, with things like polka dot and Cosmos coming through. But I think unless you’re a developer, it might be non obvious why the web three stack needs an indexing protocol and a standard to succeed. So this is kind of what I would really want to build upon. And, of course, make it a little bit more accessible. So I’m going to pretend to ask lots of dumb questions for other people when they’re probably really mine. So welcome to the show, Janet.

Yaniv Tal 2:27
Yeah, thanks a lot for having me on Jamie. And really great intro that I think kind of covers, you know, it’s a nice kind of summary of what the graph is. And I’m happy to dive into lots of details.

Jamie Burke 2:39
Great. So normally, I invite a guest to help me work through their origin story, how they arrived at a particular problem that they’re trying to solve for their mission. I normally kind of summarise it, I’m going to try something different. This time, I’m going to kind of ask you to give give the highlights. But in summary, as I kind of looked through the LinkedIn profile, and assuming I managed to kind of catch everything there. Effectively, you started out in firmware, which for those that don’t understand is software that provides this low level control for devices specific hardware, and like a recent guest and a toy of saliva. saloner, you work briefly at Qualcomm, you worked there for 10 years, I think you’d have for about a year or so. You also founded a couple of startups. More recently, you were a partner at what I understand to be a studio or incubator, with your fellow co founder at the graph. Brandon Ramirez, pretty give us some highlights of your journey to the graph. What led you to land on tackling this specific problem? And I guess, is there a natural journey there? Or kind of this? Was this a left field?

Yaniv Tal 3:52
For you? Sure. Yeah. You know, I might as well kind of walk through the whole story from the beginning. So like you mentioned, I started in, you know, math, physics, Electrical Engineering, and firmware, engineering out of school. And, you know, I think the thing that drove me to those topics was just wanting to understand how the universe works. So, you know, just small questions, small problems. And I think the the physics kind of training, I think was really interesting for just framing on, you know, how you look at the world. And it really critical thinking in understanding the structure of phenomenon. You know, it’s pretty amazing when you discover that, you know, all of the richness that we see in the universe and the world is really just the product of relevance, relatively few extremely simple rules. And it’s, you know, pretty amazing to just kind of wrap your head around that fact. So, you know, started my career doing hardware and firmware, like you mentioned, and quickly realised I didn’t want to be, you know, in that kind of environment, you know, really large corporations. You know, I worked at Hewlett Packard and, and, you know, realise that like big companies were not for me, from there started doing startups, like you mentioned, working with a friend of mine from school, Brandon Ramirez, that you mentioned. And soon after that focused my career on developer tools, the very first startup that we did was like a web startup in 2012, doing things in like mobile payments, but we were building web and mobile apps, and we had to iterate the product multiple times in that search for product market fit. And in doing that, you know, really just kind of hit the limitations of software development in general, and, you know, really asked myself, why is it so hard to build great applications? You know, and how do we make software development more accessible to many more people. And so, you know, I became really passionate about develop developer tools, frameworks, libraries, just all of the abstractions and the concepts around how developers think about software and in build applications. I worked at a company called mule soft, which does API developer tools from enterprise, and they’re, you know, got to see a lot of the software that underpins the fortune 500. You know, how did these enterprise companies acquire software integrate these like massively complex systems? You know, many of which have been around for like, decades. And, and that gave me a really interesting lens. And, you know, after that, me, Brandon and the third cap, co founder at the graph, Yunus started a react Developer Tools company together to make it easier to build user interfaces, again, just kind of chipping away at that same problem. And then in 2017, I came across Ethereum, and, you know, Ethereum for me just ignited a lot of, you know, ideas that I’ve had kind of throughout my life, just kind of like looking at the world today, you know, thinking about why is it there seem to be like a mismatch in just like how things should get done in an internet enabled world, and how things actually do get done. And and, you know, aetherium was just this giant rabbit hole. For me even while we’re working on this other startup, no, we found ourselves every like lunch, every, you know, opportunity. We had just like talking about Ethereum and the possibilities. And then, you know, it became too exciting to, to resist. So we jumped in full time. And we started building daps, you know, decentralised applications on top of aetherium, I quickly realised that the infrastructure wasn’t really ready yet. You know, it’s kind of funny at the time, people were just like, selling all of these ideas as if they already existed. And, you know, it’s fairly, those ideas weren’t, you know, real at the time. But there were a lot of interesting ideas. And people were just, like, passionate about decentralisation and changing how humans cooperate and organise and, and removing, you know, slow bureaucratic decision making and corruption. And I think those are a lot of, you know, the right ideas. And I think, you know, we need to come back to them. But it just took a few years to actually build out the infrastructure to make those kinds of applications possible.

Jamie Burke 8:46
Yeah. And I’ve seen you describe kind of the benefits of web three, I think it was almost a year ago today, December 2019. You broke out or laid out almost a manifesto, the benefits of web three, you had six points, agency reliability, interoperability, money, security, governance. Could you talk us through some of those concepts why you felt they were important? Why you felt they represented a new paradigm like I do, as we call web three?

Yaniv Tal 9:14
Yeah, and let me maybe just start with why I wrote that post, you know, December last year, I feel like we were basically at the, you know, hardest point of the winter. And, you know, it was a really trying time, I think for a lot of the entrepreneurs working in the space, where, you know, it felt like, you know, the bottom might be the floor, you know, you don’t know how low this thing’s gonna go. You know, people really lost faith. Because, you know, they’re extremely ambitious goals that people are working on for decentralisation you and, and, and since, you know, we didn’t quite have the technology to build those things. You know, it’s really hard to know Are we one year away five years years, 10 years, and you know, the answer to that makes all the difference in the world, when you’ve got, you know, a company that needs financing that only has, you know, a certain runway. And so, what I noticed is people really started just kind of giving up, um, you know, on those, you know, ideals and in the belief that we could attain it. And, you know, a lot of it, I think, was just kind of reckoning with the over exuberance of 2017 and 2018. And a lot of those ideas were in the sky, and, and so really kind of deconstructing, like, what is real about the vision that we had for web three? And, you know, what are the components of it that like, really are, you know, so significant, and, you know, can change everything? And then how do we get there? And so I kind of, you know, outlined, you know, my vision of the value of web three, why it’s important and how we get there. And, and so we published that December last year. And yeah, to kind of, you know, answer the question, I mean, I could break it down based on like, those specific features that I think are kind of meaningful features. But the basic idea is really simple, which is allowing developers to build applications that run on open public infrastructure, that’s not controlled by individual corporations. And if you can do that, you know, and you can build a great applications in that way. It is extremely powerful. Because right now, you know, we are all used to using web applications. But you know, web applications are not the first type of software that’s ever existed, right? We’ve gone through these, like different waves, you know, before the internet, you know, people were getting their software through CD ROMs. Before that, it was, you know, floppy disks, before that it was mainframe computers. So there’s lots of different ways to deliver software. And, and the problem with these kind of, you know, web applications, internet based applications, is that you give all of the power over to the corporation that’s running the software. And, and that just, you know, is limiting on so many factors that I think we’re seeing at a societal level, right, the issue with having, you know, unaccountable, unelected corporations making decisions around how humans cooperate and organise what information you can see, you know, what you’re allowed to share with your friends. But, you know, all the way down this the the scale to small companies, that you have to really trust that they’re going to continue to be around, and, and operate, you know, the service correctly, you know, I think we saw, you know, huge proliferation in web applications, and then mobile apps. And when those things were new, it was exciting, and you wanted to, you know, check out the latest App of the day. But I think what people realises Hey, startups actually have giant failure rates, you know, 90 plus percent of startups fail, you know, why would I take the time to actually use a new application, if odds are, it’s not going to be around in a year. And so, you know, there’s just like, all of these problems that compound with these types of internet applications where, you know, the service provider has complete control over the logic that’s running, and the data that’s being stored and how you can access that data. And, and, and, you know, so I think we, I, you know, so the the vision of web three is really to just reaaargh attacked, you know, how we build software. And, and make it so that we can build, you know, stable, verifiable foundation for software and for information, which, which is, you know, just a really important thing for for us as a species.

Jamie Burke 14:01
Yeah. And I seen in the context of describing where there’s a stack for a rat radically better internet, you specifically zone in on all data is stored and processed on open networks with verifiable integrity. And the graph makes querying this data fast, reliable and secure. So I guess zoning in on that data piece understanding this is a new data economy. In fact, and and of course, one of those six points was interoperability to seamlessly switch between daps and I guess that was one of the missing ingredients a year ago, and arguably, today that you’ve tried to you’re kind of speaking to with with what you’re doing with a graph. So I guess the argument is that without something like the graph, you can’t have a web three stack, right, this composability. This interoperability requires this indexing standard as If marketplace eventually to kind of properly function before we go into, you know, what is indexing and why is it important to developers, it would be good to understand when he described the graph and the universe, that kind of data universe that you have database universe that you engage with, you operate on that spectrum of both the blockchain and the storage network, you know, when blockchain and when storage network, and why do you need this combination of things for web three,

Yaniv Tal 15:31
web three, and d phi are going to be built on using a combination of many protocols. And you know, the graph is just one protocol. No, Ethereum is one protocol ipfs file coin, I think there are going to be many block chains, many layer twos on and I you know, the important thing is that all of these networks are open and verifiable, and, and permissionless or decentralised. And there’s, you know, these different properties, that, you know, when a network is open, permissionless and verifiable, you know, that it’s a stable foundation that you can build upon where you’re not dependent, again, on like a single Corporation, continuing to run the thing.

And

I think the architecture for how you build applications on top of these open protocols really depends on the application. And so, you know, we’ve seen a lot of development here over the last few years. But you know, I think, you know, there’s there are design patterns that have emerged. So for example, if you have files, you know, those should be stored on, you know, a network like, say, filecoin, ipfs, you can anchor that data, you get back a hash, and you anchor that on chain, and then you have this global consensus over the data, I think there is a big difference between these two regimes of public data and private data. So, you know, I think for public data, it’s very valuable to have consensus over that data. And to make sure that, you know, we’re speaking the same language, you know, people are constantly, you know, moving, you know, different geographies or coordinating with people and you know, different parts of the world. And if everybody’s seeing a different view of the world, it makes it really difficult to communicate. So consensus is a really powerful primitive. Now, how we build up a scalable consensus, using a series of different networks and block chains, I think is really interesting. But you know, a lot of the raw, like data storage, is something that really makes sense to offload to networks that focus specifically on that,

Jamie Burke 17:46
it would be great to now give almost one on one on indexing and why it’s important to developers kind of keeping in mind, the non developer audience. I know you, you mentioned a lot of projects in the web three space until the graph we’re doing creating custom proprietary indexing service servers. So could you talk us through, you know, why, what is indexing? Why is it important? And I guess, speaking to that, I guess, pain point of projects having to solve for that themselves in a proprietary custom way?

Yaniv Tal 18:21
Yeah, well, let’s maybe start just on, you know, what is a decentralised application, you know, and why. So if you buy into this idea that we are going to have a proliferation of decentralised applications, that the benefit of a decentralised application is that it’s running on an open public infrastructure, you don’t have to trust specific teams to operate that infrastructure, and you have a lot more freedom and control in how you interact with that software. And so, you know, you could imagine that maybe you’re an artist, and you want to be able to publish your music, I somehow get paid when people listen to your music. And, and, you know, right now, you have companies like Spotify, for example, or maybe album music, or maybe it’s the labels and you know, they exercise a lot of control over the value flows in that economy, and in a decentralised world with decentralised applications, it’s something where as an artist, I want to have control of my music and I want to know, you know, what are the the rules that impact you know, how I’m going to be able to make money, I own my reputation. That’s something that people can take away from me. And, and maybe we can also plug in like, you know, open, transparent governance on top of these things, when there are different stakeholders to make sure that these things are evolving, you know, in in, you know, open and fair ways. So, if you buy into the idea of these kind of decentralised applications, it’s really important to not have single points of failure. And whenever you have these kind of like centralising You know, places that is generally the place where value gets extracted, right? Where like these kind of monopolies get built, people take advantage. And that’s kind of just the history of human coordination is, you know, it starts out in Oculus, you know, or not an Oculus, you know, hey, somebody needs to run the server, you know, I’ll do it, I, you know, promise to be good on but, you know, it’s, you can’t bank on that. And, you know, the internet itself was designed to be decentralised. And then, you know, you had these points of centralization, you know, Google is kind of, you know, a point of centralization, Facebook, and, and then, you know, that grows and grows. So it’s important that the entire software stack is decentralised. And that’s what allows developers to build on top of somebody else’s code, without taking on the risk that the thing that they’re using is going to get yanked or changed, you know, with without their their consent. And, you know, when people were building these decentralised applications in 2017, you couldn’t actually build a great products in a fully decentralised way. So even with aetherium, on, you know, aetherium gave us this, you know, beautiful consensus layer, where you could write these smart, smart contracts. But if you try to build like a fast loading web application or a mobile app, on top of that, you know, it would take a very long time to load the data onto the screen, because the data wasn’t being stored in a format that could be efficiently queried. And so to deal with that, obviously, nobody wants to use an app where you’re staring at a white blank screen for a few minutes, or even days, you know, before you can start using the app. And so, you know, teams got pragmatic, you know, we’ve got to create a better experience. And so they would build these custom proprietary servers that would ingest the data, you know, stored in a database, and then serve it up. But now, you know, you are back to that single point of failure. And doing that work itself is very costly, it’s difficult to do well, because there’s all these ways that like, your local database could get out of sync with the blockchain. And so it’s a lot of resources for the teams. But, you know, importantly, it also just breaks the trust assumptions, you know, for these decentralised applications. So. So we came across that limitation, you know, early on when we were experimenting with a theorem in 2017. And that’s why we decided to build the graph. Because, you know, we thought that it was important to have this indexing layer that is decentralised, that allows you to build great products, products that are every bit as good as you know, the the web two products that people are used to, but will actually be a lot more powerful, because there’s a lot of exciting new features that you get with web three. And in this way, we can have a fully decentralised application stack.

Jamie Burke 23:03
Yeah, and I guess, also not having to then compromise on the security properties that you want to see in in web three. So as I understand it, the kind of MVP or the first product was Everest in December 2019. And that was as a consequence of a collaboration with metta cartel, could you talk us through how that came about?

Yaniv Tal 23:26
Yeah, so um, you know, I highlighted Everest in that path to web three posts. You know, we had many, many projects building on us even before we launched Everest. But, you know, this is this was kind of a, you know, personal pet project of mine. And luckily, the team was on board with kind of building it out. But, you know, Everest is a very simple project. It’s a project registry. And, you know, people were building a lot of interesting, exciting, awesome applications on top of the graph already. But, you know, we wanted to start getting a little bit more purposeful, around, you know, showing people what kind of decentralised applications could exist, that weren’t existing. And, you know, we wanted to help push web three, you know, from this kind of, you know, zero to one, you know, reflecting back again, when we were December 2019, you know, people are kind of left to web three for dad. And so we wanted to kind of like, you know, paint the path forward to how do we actually get this thing off the ground. And where, you know, I landed, was that we should start by focusing on applications that would be really useful for the crypto community. You know, it’s it’s tough to get to product market fit, it’s hard, tough to get to network effects. And if we’re in these early stages, where you know, the infrastructure is still maturing, it’s going to be rough around the edges, you know, it’s a lot easier to, you know, sell that and to get to product market fit and to get to network effects within a group of people that are already bought in, on. And, you know, once you get to a point where products are really easy to use, and they’re useful, because you’re already at those network effects, and it’s much easier to grow out from that base. But the first step is really to get to that base of product market fit with an initial set of apps in an initial community. And so, you know, scoping that down just to the crypto community, you know, I landed on on, you know, five different apps that could all interoperate. And that would be a really, you know, strong starting point in allowing us to organise the crypto economy, you know, because you know, the, the the people that are working in crypto, know, we’re already a pretty tight knit community, right, we’re all, you know, reading the same articles, following each other on Twitter going to the same events, in working and collaborating together. And so, you know, I think there’s room for a set of apps that we can use to organise our own work that we could build on top of web three natively, and then get to that base get to that tier two, one, get to that product market fit. And then, you know, from there, when we go out, and we try to recruit more people to like, hey, join this crypto community, now there’s this exciting thing that’s happening, there will be something there that’s real, that, that they can sink their teeth into that, like, here’s how you get started, you do these things. And and so, you know, Everest, you know, was just, you know, one of these apps, and it’s really, really simple, but it’s a projects registry, and we want to have every single project that’s in the crypto space on Everest, there’s just you know, a few basic fields, your website description, you know, logo, it’s all categorised. So you can see projects that are in defy or working on governance, or, you know, exchanges different areas inside of the crypto economy, but we want to start organising that crypto economy and, you know, this can then, you know, start the process of, you know, deconstructing some of the web to apps that we’re using today, like LinkedIn, that, quite frankly, I think, are really underserving, you know, their, their users and and start to create more crypto native ways of organising economic work.

Jamie Burke 27:36
Yeah. And obviously, since then, there have been a number of different projects of the using the graph, and we’ll get to that a little bit later. Could you explain the concept of a sub graph, and I guess, a graph sub graph, and how they then combined into a single network, and you’ve spoken about this kind of marketplace concept as well for resource allocation?

Yaniv Tal 27:58
Sure, yeah. So, you know, at a high level, you know, view of the graph, you know, it’s kind of a crazy ambitious goal. But if you could imagine a global graph of all of the world’s public information, you know, easily accessible, that anyone could build an application on top of that is the graph. And the graph is composed of sub graphs, which are these individual graph qL, API’s or open API’s that anyone can query and find these API’s are built on decentralised networks. So right now we support Ethereum and ipfs. A few layer twos like x dy. But any developer can build a subgraph, which defines how to ingest data from some web three data source, and how to process that data at ingestion time, you can build up aggregations or different views on that data, and a graph qL schema for querying that data. So with those things combined, you have your your sub graph description. We’ve launched a hosted service almost two years ago, that’s been seeing a tonne of growth that’s used by a lot of the top projects in the Ethereum ecosystem. And so there, there are over 3000 sub graphs that have deployed to that hosted service, and people can go there to discover sub graphs that have been built by developers. And then we’re launching our decentralised network later this year, where you’ll be able to publish those sub graphs to a decentralised network of indexers. Where all of that data processing, indexing and you know, query processing will be done on the decentralised network. But these these sub graphs are really powerful abstractions, because you can very quickly discover data that you want to include in your application. When you write a graph qL query, they get to just the data that you want back that you want to like surface in your UI, for example. And it’s a really convenient way to then build applications on top of graph QL. But now all of this is running, you know, on a fully decentralised application stack.

Jamie Burke 30:23
Yeah. So you mentioned the role of indexes there. And I know there’s also curators, could you talk us through the network design? And there’s there’s also, like an incentive design through the token as well. Right?

Yaniv Tal 30:33
Yeah, that’s, that’s right. So there are three main economic roles in the network. So that the indexer is we set we said, We’re the node operators that are, you know, running the servers, it’s very compute intensive, kind of task. You could almost think of these folks as like your decentralised DBAs. You know, in a traditional setting, like going in optimising database access, things like that. Then you’ve got the curators are the people that are organising the data on the graph. So they may might be building sub graphs themselves, or they’re, you know, very involved in understanding, you know, what protocols are getting built, which subgraphs would be most useful to the community, evaluating those subgraphs and, and they they signal on sub graphs with, with the graph token to indicate to indexers which sub graphs they should be indexing, and to developers to let them know which sub graphs they should be using in their applications. And then we have delegators, which are the least technical role, where you can help secure the network by staking tokens towards indexers. And I didn’t mention on the economic side that the indexers stake route tokens for economic security. So if they misbehave, they can be slashed. And then you know, the other side of the incentives, both for the indexers and curators is that they’ll be able to earn query fees. So that the indexers can set their prices, they choose which subgraphs they want to index. And then they can set their prices, very granularly per query. And the majority of the fees then go to the indexers. But the curators also get a cut based on their signal. And then there’s new token issuance that the indexers get through indexing rewards. And and that’s basically the the economic system.

Jamie Burke 32:44
Great. And so, as I mentioned at the top, you’ve already, you’re already being adopted by several well regarded projects in the space, all different use cases. So you’ve got uniswap synthetics decentralised Aragon, I’m sure there are more. Could you talk us through how some of those projects are leveraging the graph today?

Yaniv Tal 33:03
Sure, yeah. So uniswap dot info is built on the graph. So when you’re browsing to see, you know, the the different exchanges and their volumes, and like trading history, and all that stuff is coming from the graph, the synthetics exchange, there’s a lot of rich data there, for traders to be able to interact with the system, the decentralised marketplace, so you’re browsing all of the different parcels of land and, and digital goods that you can buy, that’s being powered by the graph, on apps in the empty space, like Foundation, are using the graph, you know, if you haven’t checked that out, it’s a really beautiful app that lets creators sell digital goods or physical goods directly to their audiences using NF T’s. And, and, you know, it’s just like a really beautiful experience fast loading app, you can go browse these collection by these different artists. So people are building, you know, lots of different kinds of applications on on the graph. You know, obviously, DeFi has been, you know, really big area for the space. So there’s just like a tonne of DeFi projects that are built on the graph. And empties is growing in popularity now. So we’re seeing more and more things there. dows in governance, right, like you mentioned, Aragon, we also have DAO stack in mlok. It’s just some examples of, you know, database systems. But you know, any kind of protocol like this has a, you know, rich set of data that’s being generated either on chain or, you know, on data that they’re storing on other storage networks. And, you know, they have some kind of interface, whether it’s a web or a mobile app. And so you need to organise that data to make To get efficient to access so people can build different types of applications on top. And so that’s why all these folks have chosen to build on the graph.

Jamie Burke 35:08
And so in very simple terms is the benefit of having all of these on the graph like connected, that you can start to find correlations between seemingly disconnected data in the context of machine learning, like, what what is the benefit of these things, not just existing in the silo, but being being connected in some way,

Yaniv Tal 35:31
you know, the first step is just making it possible to build an application at all, like, if you go to build an application, you don’t have something like the graph, and you’re just staring at a blank screen for a few minutes, you know, that’s just not something that you can ship. So, you know, the first thing is, you know, the graph has done a really great job of just making the developer’s life way simpler, so they can just get to market. You know, it’s a bunch of complex code that they don’t have to write themselves. You know, then there’s a question of how do you want to run that software. And, you know, a graph node is pretty resource intensive to run. So like our hosted service, we have like a massive cluster on Google Cloud, with lots of servers and beefy databases, and it’s actually quite hard to, you know, keep a service like this running reliably. So now you need DevOps folks that are keeping the servers up and running. That’s, that’s really costly. So you know, do application developers want to be in the business of operating and maintaining infrastructure, most of them not. So that’s, you know, a big benefit of the decentralised network is, you know, you don’t need to think about running servers and and just for app developers, on, you’ve already seen that trend towards more like serverless architectures even before blockchain. And I think that’s the direction that things are going because, you know, developers are in demand, and is better that they leverage their time efficiently. So, you know, that’s, that’s one massive benefit of using a decentralised network, you also get, you know, cost efficiencies, because these can be massively multi tenant, you have service providers competing to provide the best service that at the lowest price, and you get this extra redundancy with like global coverage. So purely from an operations standpoint, if you know, resource efficiency, it’s really great way to go. And then finally, it just provides this robust foundation for data, which, you know, is something that will be able to be leveraged for just more and more and more things. And, you know, it is really just crazy how, you know, how limited we are by having, you know, so much of our data in these silos where they’re not accessible by by other people, and, you know, you have to be working at so and so big company in order to even have access or knowledge of certain areas. And you know, we just restrict access to so many opportunities, because the data is living in these silos. So making it so that public data is truly public. And, and you can have people that specialise in certain areas that have that access, they can contribute, you know, by analysing that data, by integrating more systems to this global commons. And really having this like global public open infrastructure, is going to allow for just an insane number of new applications that weren’t possible before.

Jamie Burke 38:40
So I think, you know, clearly what you’re working on with a graph. And in collaboration with all these other projects in web three is, as you say, gonna make it much more easier for dap developers to deploy into the space. So you know, what, what do you what areas are you thinking of most exciting for dap developers now? And what what do you kind of see, we’ve got to look forward to in 2021, for web three.

Yaniv Tal 39:06
Yeah. So you know, it is a really exciting time for the space right now. And I think the infrastructure has really gotten to a place where we can build really great applications. And, you know, I think Crypto is now just at the very beginning of the next big wave. And so, you know, I, you know, countless opportunities for for people that want to build new applications that, you know, help us transition markets over from, you know, these old siloed you know, kind of systems to this open public permissionless infrastructure. And, you know, I really believe that the entire economy is going to move over to this new type of infrastructure and so the opportunities are just massive. So, you know, for any entrepreneurs that have been thinking about it dipping their toes in crypto and getting started. Now’s the time. You know, it’s it’s all happening. It’s really exciting, you know, time for the industry. And so we’d love to work with all those developers and help support them in building the future.

Jamie Burke 40:17
Yeah. Well, look, thanks for coming on. I think you know, a lot of the work that you’ve been doing for as long as I’ve been in the space, you know, we’ve seen a lot of use cases that we know are inevitable in web three, but we’ve just had to wait until the tooling is ready and the stacks matured. And clearly, the graph is doing a lot to accelerate that process. So thanks for all the work you’re doing and thanks for coming on the show.

Yaniv Tal 40:39
Yeah, thanks a lot Jamie. Really good.

Jamie Burke 40:44
If you enjoyed today’s podcast, please make sure you subscribe, rate and share your feedback to help us reach as many people as possible with important mission of web three.