The Growth of DAOs, and Importance of Community of Web 3, Lou Kerner of CryptoMondays


The Growth of DAOs, and Importance of Community of Web 3, Lou Kerner of CryptoMondays

June 2020

Posted by

Jamie Burke

CEO and Founder

Lou Kerner is Co-Founder and Partner at CryptoMondays. 

Posted by Jamie Burke - June 2020

June 2020

Posted by

Jamie Burke

CEO and Founder

He shares with Jamie his views on how DAOs are evolving and where they are headed. They also discuss why we’re going to see a huge explosion in value following the crypto winter.


Listen on iTunes 



Jamie: Welcome to the founders of Web 3 series by Outlier Ventures and me your host Jamie Burke. Together we’re going to meet the entrepreneurs, that backers and the leading policymakers that are shaping Web 3. Together we’re going to try to define what is Web 3, explore its nuances and understand the mission and purpose the drivers founders. If you enjoy what you hear, please do subscribe, rate and share your feedback to help us reach as many people as possible with the important mission that is Web 3.

Welcome, Lou, it’s great to have you on the podcast is one of our first guests. I guess we’ve known each other virtually for a while now and I’m guessing a couple of years possibly were introduced by by James half but I don’t think we’ve ever had the pleasure meeting in person. I think we’ve tried a couple of times. But

Lou: now I look forward to having me.

Jamie: So obviously I’ve been following a lot of what you’ve been doing community building within the crypto space. By way of background. You’ve been both an investor flight partners, which was an Israeli syndicate, I believe it’s one of the largest ones on on angels list. At one point, you have been quite active in web two with the social internet fund. And then you also advise fund to funds in the blockchain space and crypto. But you’re probably best known for your work around Crypto Mondays, which has lots of kind of spin offs at the moment, including crypto Zee TV and crypto VR and I guess we’ll kind of get into that a little bit later, but it will be great to hear you know, what still fascinates you about the space I’m always kind of try to avoid doing a Genesis story because you know, that can go on for quite a while, but it’s good to know, you know, we’re quite a way in, you’ve been around in the space for a while. You know what, why, why are you still here? What keeps you in?

Lou: Ah, it’s a good it’s a great question. I actually just wrote a post a couple days ago titled Why I’m leaving crypto and obviously was a great clickbait title because I am not leaving crypto. Got me. Got me.

Jamie: I did, I did click.

Lou: but you I think we’re going through a period of time now. You know, obviously, we had, you know, the massive run up in 2017. And then, you know, the industry was a lot bigger than and a lot of people who were just here for the money left in 2018 and then you know, the people who really believed who had seen the crypto light, you know, if they could they stuck around, you know, 2019 and now here we are 2020 you know, really two years into the bear market and I’m starting to see people who actually have seen the crypto light you really questioning if you know if what they see is is real and some of them are leaving crypto. And so the point of my post is not that I’m leaving crypto, but really why I’m still here. And I’m still here. You know, I pointed out a number of things about why I’m still here. But ultimately, it’s because yeah, and and what we’ve seen over the world over the last few months is highlights it is, you know, the world is incredibly broken and our systems are incredibly broken. And I think they’re irreparably broken. And so at the core, I’m still hearing crypto because I think that crypto represents a better way. And you know, it’s early days, and we’ve got a ways to go to get there. But I don’t want to spend my time working on an irreparably broken system. And this is a new system and the things that continue to give me confidence that it’s that it’s a better system, you know, is is simply because there’s no magic In the middle, and I’m not going to get into you know that that aspect of because I assume most of the people on your podcast, you’re aware of that. And the other things you really kind of continue to sustain me is you’ll first I was here around for the internet bubble and burst. And the mistake I made was I let the market going DAOn. Tell me what informed me about the truth of the internet and the the impact the internet was going to have on society. And you know, while the markets a signal, the market is not truth. And so I’m taking the mark as a signal now, but not as truth. Yeah, and yeah, I was just at eath Denver a couple months ago and and this is an industry that’s still attracting some of the smartest people on the planet who are passionate about crypto and who see the same things that you know, that you and I see. And, you know, even though we’re still in this bear market, there are some things that are scaling. You know, speculation in Asia was the first thing to scale. You know, I was in Asia four times last year. It’s just a totally different world in crypto Asia than it is in crypto us or crypto Europe. You know, there’s still lambos at the at the events there, because there’s a lot of money being made there. Now, a lot of it’s speculation, most of it’s speculation, but there are also a lot of investment going on there and trying to build core technologies. And it’s not just speculation, but you know, over the last six months, we’ve seen a lot of scaling and defy. And obviously, you know, we had a bit of a plane crash and maker doubt, but anybody who understood how things work knew that we were going to have plane crashes. And by the way, spoiler alert, that’s not our last plane crash. So while we’re still two years into this bear market, I still see plenty of reasons to be remarkably positive.

Jamie: And I mean, my kind of cents on things because like you I have exposure to crypto in lots of different markets, notwithstanding the fact that I’m based in Europe, which has a particular flavour and sentiment that sometimes trails others but there’s also quite separate but you Quickly. I also spent quite a bit of time in Asia in China last year. And it feels like in the US there, there is a bit more capitulation that there seems to be this return back to Bitcoin and Bitcoin maximalism is Is that true? It’s just what I seem to be picking up on Twitter compared to say Asia.

Lou: Yeah, you know, it’s it’s interesting, right? We can all get this distorted view what’s going on based on the particular individuals we follow or have respect for on on on Twitter. You look this the US to call it capitulation? I guess, you know, we are, you know, one of the things that I was struck by on my first trip to Asia was, you know, I met some guys from circle at the first events and I asked them how it was going and they’re saying, Oh, it’s horrible. We’re leaving. And I’ve never like seen people working at a company talking about how they had one foot out the door. Five minutes out. I met them. And it was because what you’re telling me was so broadly well known, and that’s your that that circle as well as any other US company can’t compete because of the regulatory environment in the United States, even if they’re in Asia, they still have to comply with a lot of things. So, you know, I think for regulatory reasons, you know, as you know, the by white marks the number one thing, yeah, it’s just, you know, the US is still very much in a bear market. There’s still a lot of innovation going on in New York and San Francisco and Los Angeles, and, and other cities, Seattle, but, you know, obviously, the level of activity is, you know, 10 20% of what it was a couple years ago.

Jamie: So is it true to say that us startups, in a sense are kind of fighting with with one arm behind their back in the sense that they just can’t, they can’t, you know, they can’t do the dance around regulation that other startups Just by, you know, read on assigning somewhere else, it’s a bit more friendly.

Lou: Yes. And so you know, the only the stuff that’s happening here again now and it’s a lot of stuff in defy is is happening here but the bottom line is if you have to ask for permission to do whatever it is you want to do in crypto, the answer is going to be no. So the defy guys, we’re scaling, like maker like defies app like Yoona swap, you know, they’re not calling the government and asking permission. They’re just going out there and they’re doing it.

Jamie: Well, then I think, you know, certainly if we look at the action that has happened from the SEC, putting aside, you know, outright fraud, if anything, they’ve certainly set a precedent, which is to just do it and beg for forgiveness afterwards. Right? good actors that have tried to engage with them over very long periods often end up running out of money. You know, they just can’t Can’t afford for the legal fees. So it’s so so so what what is that then doing to the startup ecosystem? Are they relocating? Or are they is it just pushing, pushing the more to the extreme of of decentralisation and, and things like defy?

Lou: Yeah, no, they the people who really want to do something in the area that is regulated, they have to leave. You cannot do it here. The young coin base, obviously, they were the first one they had some success. But I think like if you take a look at SPX as an example, you familiar with f dx. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, exactly. I mean, you know, they’re, they’re a great company, you know, a bunch of Americans in Hong Kong, you know, building a great derivatives platform. So, so you can do it if you’re American. If you you know, if you leave and work for a company that that isn’t domiciled in the United States, and that’s what a lot of people are doing, you know, go to Asia, go to Berlin law. of Americans in the Burman ecosystem, which is awesome.

Jamie: Yeah, absolutely. And do you think that this is an impossible question to answer? So it’s really kind of your just your gut instinct. But do you think with all the macro stuff that’s happening at the moment this is going to play is going to be beneficial in the US for crypto, or do you think it’s just gonna kind of distract everybody from even considering innovation in the space for some time?

Lou: Sure. So you know, like the word sick is right, we all you know, have our life experience and and we extrapolate from our life’s experience, even though sometimes it’s from very small samples. But yeah, I was there at the beginning. My first company was the largest streamer a video in 2000. Except for you know, the experience sec because the pipes weren’t ready. And Fast Forward five years. You know, I was there when somebody uploaded a video called Lazy Sunday onto this tiny Little website called YouTube and YouTube that they became the fastest growing website in the history of the world. And five years later, and a few months later, they’re required for one and a half billion dollars by Google. And and that happened for a number of reasons. But you know, at the end of the day, I really feel like we, as an industry have to build product products that people want to use and can use. And if we do that, which I you know, I think we’re it’s inevitable that we will do that. Then we’ll have our crypto moment and, and, and something will go mainstream. And then the second thing will go mainstream, and then we’ll be Yeah. And then we’ll see a bubble that’s going to dwarf the last bubble. And the only question I have, I have no doubt that’s coming. The only question is, is it? You know, one week, one month, one year 10 years? Yeah, I’m pretty sure it’s closer to one year, one month and 10 years, but You know, that’s something that nobody has the answer to.

Jamie: Yeah. And it’s a case of staying solvent, right? Until that until that moment happens.

Lou: There’s a great you know who Bill Gross from Idealab is? I don’t. So. So my first company, I was working, I was an equity analyst I kind of bounced around earlier in my career with little success. And then I found my way to Wall Street. I was become an equity analyst, and I ended up at Goldman Sachs and I was kind of living the dream and I was very happy with my work. Equity analysts were well paid late 99. But in my gut, I’m an entrepreneur and I was still working for the man. And I got a call to be the CEO of a internet company by the by the first internet incubator called Idealab. Bill Gross, the smartest guy I’ve ever met. I joined Idealab is the 55th company in the incubator in January of 2000. In February, he raised a billion dollars cash. About four years ago, he did a TED talk Where he did a data analysis of the more than 200 companies he started including eight unicorns, including what I believe to be the best business idea in the history of mankind, which is paid search, which was his idea. And anyways, he did the data analysis. And in the TED Talk, he’s also a great speaker. You know, he says he called the company IDEA Lab because he thought it was all about the idea. And then after a couple years, he realised it was all about the management. And then he eventually ran the numbers and found that by a wide margin, the dominant factor driving success of startups is timing. You know, it’s not what they did.

Jamie: Yeah, absolutely. So you know, as somebody that’s watched the web evolve web one, two, and now let’s call it three. I mean, do you refer to this space as Web 3? I know you prefer the kind of crypto moniker but does Web 3 makes sense to you as defines the paradigm?

Lou: Me I really don’t care. I think what’s more important than that, What we call it is that we all kind of call it the same thing. And, you know, that’s the struggle that every industry has, when it’s new, and will coalesce around something, eventually, I’m happy using Web 3, you know, I certainly understand that, you know, I was there went to the SEC company, Iran was the largest social network in the world before MySpace. So I was there at the beginning of the promise of web two, and how it was going to get rid of all the gatekeepers, and obviously, what we ended up with were just bigger, more dominant gatekeepers. And so you know, thinking of this as Web 3, and thinking of this as really giving the power to the people to the community, you know, that was the promise of web two didn’t turn out that way. It’s the promise of Web 3 and Time will tell whether it turns out that way or not. I still think that there’s, you know, a very, very, you know, significant chance that this will end up just being controlled by, you know, the same guys who control the web two, because, you know, they’ve got massive, you know, tools to use, whether it’s capital or People are or lobbyists and such to make sure that they stay in power.

Jamie: Yeah, and obviously we’ve already seen with Facebook Libra, that move. I mean, it’s interesting. Prior to crypto or even investing, I set up one of the first social media agencies consultancies in Europe, and I remember I’m frame Oh, God, I can never really remember the year but it’s got to be I remember, even prior to that I was originally worked in WP p the advertising group. And I was the first person to bring Twitter and Facebook into JD Beatty. When they had like a sales team of, I don’t know, two three people in the UK.

Lou: crazy.

Jamie: And, you know, I remember a lot of hubris and naivety that this was going to change everything for the better. I mean, we always were all I’m often utopia at heart right? We are We all kind of hope the world is going to improve. And of course, fast forward to where we are now with surveillance capitalism, and however you want to call it the dominant model of cloud platforms. And it couldn’t be further from the truth. So I do think it’s a really interesting question, what what can we learn from that? And I was gonna ask you, if it is Web 3, if it is something distinct to web two, what is different or what promises to be different? And then you know, you were talking about some of the watch outs, where I guess the key one would be, if we think this is all about disintermediation, it’s about decentralisation then, you know, where are the threats for centralization and middlemen re establishing themselves.

Lou: So yeah, I mean, I’ll just read the last thing. So you know, the challenges we have. Again, I think the biggest difference between crypto and everything that came before crypto is community because if you decentralise realise then you’re empowering the community. And yeah, at the end of the day, the worlds work where there’s always been somebody in the middle, and that person is solving for themselves. And now we can solve for the community. And we could set a, you know, set rules for how the community functions, and they can be algorithms. So we know they’re going to be followed. And you know, that this the struggles that we have, and what we need to get better at are the two tenants of communities, which are, what are the token economics? How do we incentivize people in the community to act in the best interest of the community? And the other is governance and consensus? How do we move forward as a community because if we can’t move forward, the world changes the world evolves. There’s a great Thomas Jefferson quote, you know, because there was a big battle when they wrote the Constitution in the United States about whether the constitution should be set in stone, or whether it should be a living document and he forcefully it should be a living document because you know, otherwise would be like forcing, you know, a grown man to wear the coat that fit him as a little boy. And and so most crypto companies are going to decentralised crypto companies are going to have to have some form of governance that enables them to evolve. And we’re not there yet. In terms of having a functional governance system for decentralised organisations, you know, at scale, Bitcoin is Bitcoin in some degrees because its governance is broken. And so everybody knows what its gonna be, and therefore can have a lot of faith in it, which is, which is interesting. But bitcoins, you know, competing against gold, which hasn’t, you know, to some degree, at least that’s what I think it is. Yeah, which hasn’t changed in 5000 years. So it doesn’t have to evolve very much, I think to you know, supplant gold, but I think most other crypto entities are actually going to have to have it the central identities are going to have to have functional governance systems, and there really aren’t any yet.

Jamie: Yeah, and I guess this is what led you into the world of DAOns. But I just want to kind of pick upon what I think is a key word in what you said, which is around rules and the the ability for us to potentially have a rules based web, I guess not one set of rules, but a number of competing constitutions and rules, presumably those that are the most friendly or enabling, or least extractive. That’s where the most economic value will flow to. And you know, I think if you look at some of the failings or not even failings, right, the reason why the web is the way it is today, if you look at some of the kind of founding fathers of that, and the dogma that they brought to it, you of course, had the Declaration of Independence of cyberspace, which pretty much said, We don’t want any rules here. It’ll be run by a market and quite a kind of free market fundamentalist attitude towards the market will solve for property. And in a way it did. You had these commercial entities sold for there being no identity native to the to the web, there being no form of reputation there being no kind of property, property rights. But you know, in the end that created this evolutionary niche for these platforms to emerge. And so now, I also kind of really liked this idea about the ability to hard code rules into the web in order that they can be more orderly, or at least we can understand the rules of the game in a way that perhaps with the web, now it’s implicit rather than explicit.

Lou: Yeah, I mean, look, right now we live in a world for the most part where you know, the institutions that we have to interact with, they don’t even tell us the rules. And if they do tell us the rules, they’re lying and if they’re not lying, and they’re just changing them, because they can and that’s the way humanity is always working. Right, and now there’s the opportunity for a better system. And you know, I’ve talked a lot about community without actually even given a definition for it. Because again, nomenclature is important. For me, when I, when I use the term community, what I need is an ecosystem where everybody gets more out of it than they put in, which is kind of like magical. And if you think, you know, when I think about how big communities can become, you know, I think that there’s a high correlation between, you know, how much a community can scale and the Delta, or the difference between how much it cost them to produce the good that they give to the community, you know, right? People belong to communities, because they’re getting value from it. And so the question is, you know, what’s the difference between how much it cost the community to, you know, build or create what it is that the community members value, and how much the community members value that out. So the difference between those two things, I think, will drive The scale will be highly correlated to the scale of the community. And if you think about what are the biggest communities today, the biggest communities today in the world are religions. Right? Why? Because they have the biggest Delta, right? They create faith. And faith doesn’t cost anything to make, it’s free to manufacture, they can manufacture in an infinite amount of faith, and it doesn’t cost them anything more. And people, you know, millions of billions and billions of people, you know, would give their lives for their faith. So, as you know, crypto, you know, and that’s the framework I use for crypto communities. What is it? What’s the value that we’re creating? Yeah, how much does it cost us? And and how much is our community members value in that if you can get a big enough Delta there? I think you can create, you know, build a big business,

Jamie: right. So let’s jump into DAOns because obviously, there’s a natural kind of leap. Now you recently did DAOel Fest, which I am dialled into, albeit quietly, observing, to be honest, I felt a bit old, which is normally a good thing in these instances. So on the one hand, I kind of, you know, listening to it. The cynic in me was a bit sceptical and there was a lot of hubris and naivety there at the same time, there was a lot of energy and excitement and kind of positivity about the possibilities. And actually, I think that mix is, is really healthy, but I’ll be honest, up until up until that point, I’d always been hopeful about the promise of DAOs but kind of sceptical shorts and midterm that it would ever break out of of the crypto community. But I after listening to that, I went away quite energised about this possibility and then went DAOn a bit of a rabbit hole as to the the kind of state of play with the stack the stacks that have been built around. DAOns whether that’s a DAO stack itself or any others and have kind of my my tech guys look at it and there’s it’s it’s pretty mature and I kind of just had the feeling that it you know Bitcoin emerged in 2008 as a response to 2008 was the folklore has it? And I could imagine so that for me was a question of what is money? And if we look at the DAO maybe now is the time for the DAO because that is what is work when everyone’s gonna be out of work or, you know, having to work in a more decentralised way. But it’d be great to kind of jump into that a little bit, you know, what have you What have you learned from this time you’ve invested in, in going deep into the DAO space and, you know, what do you see as its opportunities in the in the short to mid term?

Lou: Sure. So yeah, I think my my first real kind of deep initiation into the DAO world was by a Matan Feld, who’s The founder of DAO stack, you know, before I got into crypto, I was investing in tech companies founded by Israelis. And I had been into crypto a bit before that. So when I started going Israel, I also, you know, I really enjoyed meeting with crypto related companies there and there, you know, there are a lot of old G’s in Israel, you know, that’s where zero knowledge proof was invented. Right, they’re big on cryptography. And, you know, and what Matan was building at DAO stack or Aragon was building or colonies building, you know, is this stack of tools to enable, you know, complex organisations to be run in a decentralised fashion. And you know, and it’s incredibly complex, and in fact, you know, Jamie, I’ve no doubt you believe this, too. You know, if you’re a VC and you’ve done startups and stuff, but you know, Intel, you take a product and put it out in the marketplace, you don’t have any fucking idea about anything. It’s just you know, right. You know, there’s there’s data and then Our opinions and really who gives a fuck about opinions? Let’s get some data. Let’s get out there and let’s, you know build a business. And, you know, what happened in the DAO world was you have these brilliant guys by a you know, Bhutan’s brilliant before he did douse tech, he was a string physicist. And you know, and I think he’s thinking deeply and a lot of smart people work at Caltech and are helping him think deeply about how this works. But what happened was, while all this deep thinking was going on, there was this other incredibly brilliant guy amine soleimani. You know, I mean, I know of him. I don’t know him in person. Yeah, well, it means awesome. I mean, lives in LA. I’m originally from LA, so hang out a lot there. So you know, I’ve gotten to know him, although the first time I met him was when, you know, I ended up at a random meetup in Miami just because I was in there and didn’t have anything to do. And there were like, 10 guys there. And I mean, at that time was famous in my view for having started spank chain, which is A cryptocurrency for the adult industry. Because you know, at least in the United States, it’s very difficult to get a bank account if you work in the adult industry. And he spent half the meetup talking about spanking and half of the meetup talking about his more recent project, which was called the Moloch. DAO. And essentially, you know, what I mean came up with is the minimum viable doubt, which is really, you know, what you need to do just fucking get out there and do it and learn. And so the Moloch DAO, the original Moloch, DAO, was to be a grant giving platform, because I mean, thought that the current aetherium grant giving platform is kind of broken. And you know, because it was so functional, his Minimum Viable DAOn I think kind of the biggest innovation he had the great is the rage quit, so you could give my lesson. Yeah, exactly. So you can give money to the DAO and then if the DAO voted on something and you didn’t like it, then you know, you could get all your money back. that hadn’t been Spent up to that date and no money been spent that you hadn’t agreed with or said, I’ll leave my money in the DAO, and just that little bit of innovation and the minimum viable and you know, and within a couple months, you know, he got Joe Lubin to participate and vitalik to participate and became a big thing. And he Bayer and it was workable and now, you know, a year later they’re more than 100 forks of Moloch DAO and you know, including, you know, things that have scaled like meta cartel and you know, and certainly everybody else in Dallas, you know, has woken up and said, Okay, let’s all now let’s go to the minimum viable DAO and then we’ll build up from there. And so there’s just an extraordinary amount of innovation going on today in Dallas, but you know, to be clear, there you know, the what’s working now is is like, you know, single cell or or to sell amoebas you know, their their video, they can do a very Very, very simple function. But once you get there’s no complexity yet. And so, you know how we get from here to there. Nobody knows exactly how but at least now we’re on a path that’s moving forward. And that’s incredibly exciting.

Jamie: I guess it’s like most tech, right, that the early adopters are going to be those that are marginalised. So of course, you know, the sex industry and technology have been long intertwined. And then of course, I think if you look at whether it whether it’s, you know, gap gambling or gaming, I think, you know, teenagers who of course, you know, marginalised, certainly economically that inability to participate in in the economy and I think what really struck me as I went DAOn that rabbit hole having gone to DAO fest was was this merging of the gaming community, and and DAOns and how a lot of the language that’s used to describe roles, functions, features, In DAOns are directly correlated to to gaming culture and like clans and stuff like that, that you have in these massively multiplayer gaming environments. So do you think that your gaming is going to be the breakaway environment for for the application of vows? Or do you just think it’s a generational thing that this is linkage between the people that are adopting DAOs and crypto and, and gaming?

Lou: Yeah, look, that’s that’s a great insight and great question. So when when I first saw the crypto light and and when I saw because of my background, you know, I saw the importance of community I think we all see something different I think kryptos infinite. I think we’re all right, you know, when we see something different, but um, you know, but but but I saw community and I and I saw governance and consensus and I saw token economics, you know, not day one, but pretty quickly, and when I saw token economics, my mind was blown. And so I was like, immediately set out to try Find like the smartest token economics people I could find. And literally, like, you know, the people were charging 500 $1,000 an hour to do token economics, you know, and I was talking to these, like the leading consultants who were, you know, in plus 1% of the, I mean, it was crazy what these guys are getting paid. And like the first three or four guys I talked to, I knew more about token and my token economics than they did and I didn’t fucking know anything. And I was shocked the people were paying these guys $1,000 to tell them drivel. And then like, the fourth or fifth guy got introduced to like, the first thing he said, blew me away. And the second thing he said, blew me away even more. So a lot of men have, you know, these things. And and he had said that he had run token economics for Zynga. Right, which was, you know, and they have like, you know, 50 million hundred million people token economic systems. So he had actually learned how token economics work. He hadn’t drawn it out on the board and theorised about it but he had actually done it, you know, That’s a guy that guy’s name is Tom bollock? And, you know, I said at the time that token economics, you know, that they’re, you know, when I first saw it, like one of the first things I wrote about it is, you know, and we’re going to graduate people in PhD programmes with token economics degrees. And three or four months ago in crypto Monday in New York. You know, I was, did a fireside chat with the woman who a professor who started the first Ph. D. programme in token economics at the University of Vienna. So, you know, again, props, but like the smartest people in the world are working to solve

Jamie: Yeah, and I think that’s one of the most exciting things for me. If you want any kind of signal, it’s where are the breath, the best and brightest, you know, applying their their brains and brainpower and it still continues to be this domain. You’ve looked at the breadth of different backgrounds and stuff. What kind of final thing I want to cover collagen linked to DAOn gaming is NF T’s. I know that you’ve also been exploring that a little bit. You’ve also recently launched crypto Monday’s VR. So I think you’re looking at virtual reality mixed reality. So what’s your perspective on NF T’s? Do you think that time is coming? 2020? Or what’s your view on?

Lou: So, you know, going back because I think NF T’s are just another thing that okay, well, what is an NFP? What function do they have? And I’ll tell you what I think an NFP is right. So, you know, going back to what I talked about in community, you have that, you know, this idea of token economics and this idea of value creation and community between, you know, how much it costs a community to manufacture the value of give to the members and how much the members value that at. And so, so, you know, it’s my view that the majority of the value that’s going to be given to the community is in in stuff that it doesn’t cost the community anything to produce, right. I talked about faith, faith doesn’t cost anything to produce when I ran both, you know, which was the largest social network in the world before MySpace 23 million kids that are at our peak, we could get a couple million kids to do anything for bands that would grow around their profile conferring status in our community status in a community, people, you know, it’s free to manufacture and people can value that at a very high rate, you know, everybody wants to be a part of a community and everybody wants to be respected right as part of that community. And and so when I say NF T’s I say NF T’s, you know, when, when I first got into, I said, Look, I know their status, and I know there gotta be other things that are going to be free to manufacture that people value very highly. That’s what NF T’s are, to me. There’s this things that we can create for zero, and, you know, and whatever they are and what they are, I mean, you know, you know, people just think of them as as memorabilia, but that’s, you know, that’s that’s just the first kernel of what these things are going to be. You know, Ticket master every ticket is an NF T, that can be imbued with different rights and values that can be torn apart and sold off as one offs. So, you know, I think that NF T’s are going to be a, you know, incredibly foundational element of how this whole ecosystem works,

Jamie: because of the role that they can play in community building. And as you said, you know, community crypto for you is ultimately about community.

Lou: Right for community reward, how do you reward right? This is about, right, we all want to be part of ecosystems that give us more value than then then we give it right, everybody’s got to get that in order for that to happen. Right? You have to be able to create things that people value add more than a lot more than it costs you to create them and the lowest value creation is zero. And we’re at the very beginning of what NF T’s are going to be, you know, the first company I ran was the top level domain.tv you know, so and I spent a lot of time in the domain name space. Write domain names or NF T’s, right? And what and what can be part of a domain name. I mean, it can be infinite what can be part of a domain name right. And now, your domain names are also now going to be a lot of our wallets are going to be identified by our domain names, I think going forward, and those are all NF T’s. So, you know, I think NF T’s are really, really not appreciated. I don’t Yeah, I don’t I think most people have, I think I have a much more expansive view of what they are the most people do.

Jamie: Yeah, that makes sense. You know, I think most people, I mean, the reality is most people can only see what’s in front of them. Right. So I have a very narrow definition on on what’s possible today. So one of the things that we want to focus on on this podcast is really the founders that are driving, defining, building Web 3, in your mind, who are the most exciting emerging founders out there and what is it that impresses you about what That achieving now in

Lou: your work I tell you know, going to Asia and spending time in Asia, you know, it’s completely blown away by Cz and you know what he’s doing and you know, buying coin market cap, right? I mean, these guys are seeing a bigger future than anybody in the United States, right? You know, could they be wrong? Sure. But if they’re right and this is what we all fucking think it is these guys Cz is going to be looked upon as a genius, you know and somebody else who I think gets ripped in the US. You know if you spend your life on the twittersphere and don’t go outside of that, by the way, I spend way too much time in the twittersphere so I have massive biases. I have no doubt. You know, one of the other guys is Justin sun from Tron. Right now you can say, well, all he’s doing is copying and pasting maker DAOn to give his own thing, but okay, if you can do that, if that’s legal, then you could say, well, should it be legal? Shouldn’t it be legal? That’s another question. But the bottom line is, is he’s doing it and he’s building a company and you know And and maker DAO is going to have to fucking deal with it and everybody who’s whining is just wasting their time. You know, I think what the guys in maker doing is awesome. I think Yoona swap oh my god decentralised liquidity I you know, I think what is one of the probably it’s the most mind blowing thing I’ve seen in the two and a half years that I’ve been 24 seven crypto. And it’s all just started and to some degree I don’t even think it started yet. It’s it’s still so small, which is part of the joy is, you know, most people who get it is, you know, we’re all working together rowing in the same direction. There’s no reason to fight over anything, because there’s only crumbs here today. But you know, let’s bake a cake and then we can fight over the slices.

Jamie: Yeah, I mean, it’s quite, it’s quite reassuring to hear that perspective from somebody based out in the US because I mean, clearly it’s a byproduct of the fact that you’ve invested time in, in travelling into other regions and I think, you know, we will look to interview founders from across The spectrum on the podcast we have, you know, several already lined up that you mentioned. And in some ways, you know, they’re seen as controversial or frowned upon, because I think it’s largely a cultural thing, right, you know, the approach to entrepreneurs and out of Asia and China, and the focus on execution and deal making, the kind of aggression behind it is weirdly frowned upon now, which, you know, the US was always known for that in the past, I find it quite strange.

Lou: Yeah, you know, I don’t know, you know, I think, right. I mean, if you’re a trailblazer, like yeah, I’m always shocked that for me personally, I’m not a fanboy and bear many people. But Elon Musk, you know, he said, Thomas Edison of our day. I mean, oh my god, and yet, you know, go in the twittersphere. And there’s massive amounts of hate for him. I don’t get it. But I you know, you know, and community, right, there’s massive amounts of hate and you know, just in In community and you know what you have to realise I’ve spent a lot of time in community you know and thought a lot about well why is there all this hate? Why is there all this vitriol and what a waste of fucking time and energy? And wouldn’t the world be a better place if this didn’t exist? And, you know, I’ve now come out the other end and actually believe that it’s, it’s a feature, it’s not about everybody’s, you know, everybody’s who they are and has a worldview about how they can make things better. And and the more you allow people to do that, and the more freedom you give people to you know, achieve their vision because you know, nobody knows whose visits is really right. So yeah, and that’s what I love about crypto is it’s the opportunity for people to see a better world and and and use tools in a Lego way quite often right? I mean, that’s one of the other amazing things is, you know, in defy is like this world of Legos. We’ve just put different ones together. Now you’ve got a new company. Anyways, this has been awesome. This has been a lot of fun. It’s exciting. Talk about

Jamie: Yeah, well, we’ll definitely get you on again. So maybe to just close off, do you want to share a little bit more about how people can get involved in crypto Monday’s crypto VR and crypto TV?

Lou: Sure. So um, you know, if you live in a city that doesn’t have a crypto Mondays, yeah, obviously today, nobody’s having in person events, but you can start it off as a virtual event. You know, in your city. I think it’s a great time to do that, I think easier to grab people’s attention with interesting content today than it will be when people get to go outside again, and they can drink again, because that’s attractive to a lot of people. So that’s crypto Monday’s crypto. I didn’t talk that much about it, but crypto z TV, Z is for zoom. So it’s just a platform, again, similar to crypto Monday’s to help people who have an idea for a show and want to do some something over zoom. You know, to help them you know, we know we have zoom we have an audience a little bit that we can Bring them, but just to give people a platform to help them, find their own audience and build their own audience. And I think if we get enough of those going, they’ll We’ll figure some more things out. I think you were already learned a lot of interesting lessons.

Jamie:  And finally, what’s your Twitter handle?

Lou: I’m at Luke Turner, and I’m also an active blogger on medium.

Jamie: Great. Thanks for your time. Really great to chat. We’ll definitely get you on again at some point and looking forward to seeing how initiatives like Tao fest progress. Thanks for taking me taking me back DAOn the rabbit hole.

Lou: Okay, thanks a lot, Jamie. And thanks for everything you went out by your venture school. No problem.

Jamie: If you enjoyed today’s podcast, please make sure you subscribe, rate and share your feedback to help us reach as many people as possible with important mission of Web 3.