podcasts

Mobilising & Coordinating Web 3 through DAOs, Luis Cuende of Aragon

podcasts

Mobilising & Coordinating Web 3 through DAOs, Luis Cuende of Aragon

July 2020

Posted by

Jamie Burke

CEO and Founder

As an early investor in Bitcoin and Ether Jamie went ‘all in’ during 2013 founding Outlier Ventures, Europe’s 1st venture fund and platform dedicated to blockchain and Web 3....read more


Luis Cuende, Co-Founder and Core Contributor at Aragon is a self proclaimed ‘Free Software’ lover and hacker. We talk about how DAOs (Decentralised Autonomous Organisations) allow us to govern supranational protocols as ‘digital jurisdictions’, with manifestos and bylaws that remove ambiguities, reduce frictions and the changes of forking of networks. We talk about how these technologies are being experimented with, their convergence with gaming culture and potential to some day challenge the nation state itself.

 

Posted by Jamie Burke - July 2020

July 2020

Posted by

Jamie Burke

CEO and Founder

As an early investor in Bitcoin and Ether Jamie went ‘all in’ during 2013 founding Outlier Ventures, Europe’s 1st venture fund and platform dedicated to blockchain and Web 3....read more

Key themes:

  • Supranational protocols
  • The 1st Digital Jurisdiction
  • Manifesto
  • Optimising participation and effectiveness in DAOs
  • DAOs as against 51% Attacks and forks

Listen on iTunes

 

Transcript:

Jamie: Welcome to the Founders of Web 3 series by Outlier Ventures and me your host Jamie Burke. Together we’re going to meet the entrepreneurs, their backers, and the leading policymakers that are shaping Web 3. Together, we’re going to try to define what is Web 3, explore its nuances and understand the mission and purpose the drivers founders. If you enjoy what you hear, please do subscribe, rate and share your feedback to help us reach as many people as possible with the important mission that is Web 3.

Today, I’m really happy to welcome a Co-Founder and Core Contributor to the Aragon network and Aragon Association. Luis Cuende, Aragon gives the internet communities unprecedented power to organise around shared values and resources and ultimately create doubt decentralised autonomous organisations, and the promise of Aragon is to allow that to happen in five minutes. We’ve tested it. It’s true. So welcome on the show who is Yeah, I mean, so you describe yourself as a free software lover and hacker. I guess free software is a reference to the free software movement of Richard Stallman, rather than necessarily what people misunderstand it as you know, that championing something that is naturally positive? So I don’t know if you just want to explain that first in terms of the Freedom Movement, what that means.

Luis: Yeah, so I got into free software, which is, I guess, like more commonly referred to open source assays, although the ethos was a bit different, but I got into that when I was 12. Because of like the power that software it gives you. I come from a humble family where like you went to the things I wanted to do or explore or like my curiosity will actually cost money and will actually need like, you know, hardware or like labs or stuff like that. And with Soviet Union, any of that you can like just grab a laptop and then that’s all the investment you need. is open source. So you can use rabbit you can play with it, you can create awesome stuff. And so for me that was mind blowing that you could just grab those things for free and contribute. And then if you make something useful then contribute back.

Jamie: And that movements been going since the 80s. And the free part is really a reference to freedom to use and modify. And there’s a lot of kind of copyright licensing that’s come out to that that’s enabled the open source movement, as you say, so you are Forbes 30 under 30, MIT Tr 35, which I assume is somehow linked to that as well. You were named as best programmer in Europe and 18 by hat forward in an advisor to the Vice President of the European Commission on technology and a number of other things. And you are a serial entrepreneur, despite your relative age. I believe it’s six startups and counting. If you were class arrogant as a startup.

Luis: most of them failed. But yeah.

Jamie: that’s okay. That’s that’s the odds that we go into writers as founders. So the reason why I I wanted you on the show was because I think the work that you’re doing arrogant is incredibly important. Over the last decade, these supernational open protocols have emerged and they’ve gone on to hold billions of dollars worth of assets and value and hopefully at least the promises that over time they will begin handling greater economic load. So how they’re governed is increasingly important. Equally as regulators try to restrict innovation in some places, or place kind of false or fairly ambiguous burdens of decentralisation, on projects, how they are governed is bringing increasing levels of scrutiny. I think if you ask most people in the industry, or at least that are entering industry around ours, everybody acknowledges that they hold the most promise but they probably bring the most scepticism. I think many People feel that too far away that somehow sci fi, perhaps they just can’t imagine a different system. And perhaps that they also label these things as fairly topic. But you guys are not only building a stack for other people to create downs, but you’re effectively dogfooding. You know, you are doing what you preach in terms of how you run out again, and the network. So as a quick summary to your background, as I said, You like me, actually, as far as I can understand, learned at the school of life. So I could see that you didn’t necessarily go to a university I actually dropped out within the first couple of weeks. So I think all the best people have had that start. And you started out developing. You founded a few startups that was Apollo labs, in 2011, which was trying to do the first distributed desktop around 2008 1013 Asterix which was a Linux distribution pioneer using facial login again, Linux in this case. connection to open source is something pretty consistent in your background and then you’ve done other things like work within loyalty cards with card. We worked at Telefonica for a while, and something called patents, which is a crowdfunding platform. So again, I guess relevant to what you ended up doing with with Aragon. In particular, that was looking at bad peyten. So, in 2018, you founded sorry, 2016, you founded Aragon, and during that time, you went on to set a paragon wall, I believe it’s kind of changed now. And then somebody called stamper before we go into, I guess exactly what Aragon is and the kind of work that you’re doing there. Could you just explain the difference between Aragon the network and foundation and then the other associated Aragon organisations such as our?

Luis: Yeah, for sure. So in terms of decentralised networks and breaks, they are very different to startups where you just have one entity and that’s it. So, for example, in 2017, when we did the token sale for Aragon, we needed some entity that actually would manage funds, right? Because you have this chicken and egg problem where you cannot make that happen if you don’t have funding and hire people, and so but there were no that was like them. So we will then just create a logo. And that’s it. So we did that. That is a model that has been like more kind of like widespread around crypto and other work. So you create a legal entity and then the legal entity concept Oracle until it is sufficiently decentralised. And so that’s what we’re doing. The idea of having the Aragon association which is kind of the legal stare word of the project was that that one was getting grants was funding development and is a nonprofit in Switzerland. But then there is also like development teams. So basically, element teams are basically teams which get funded by the Association to develop software via grants and so you have like Aragon1, which is one of them. There are other communities such as for example, one hive which is about itself running on Aragon, which Sources grants by their discovery ecosystem where there is no single entity that basically controls or like, develops network.

Jamie: Great. And so I guess there are several instances of how that technology stack can be developed and taken to market. I guess that in theory that makes it somewhat more resilient. So as I was kind of preparing for our interview, I normally always look at somebody’s Twitter stream to see what’s going on in their mind at the latest moment. And, you know, clearly, I like these podcasts to be fairly timeless. But there’s a lot going on right now in the world, which clearly has, has your attention. And I think the Aragon project speaks to so you recently expressing your disappointment that Web 3 is not yet ready for primetime generally. And perhaps when its moment has come when many systems are collapsing or seeming to collapse around as there’s this great opportunity for us to say, hey, look at this alternative system, and we’re not quite yet ready the way He kind of articulated that or broke that down was that when you were building arrogant, you thought by 2018 scaling would be solved like clients would be widespread and privacy tech would be everywhere. It wouldn’t be mainstreamed already. how critical I mean, there’s many reasons why that hasn’t happened. And this is the purpose of the podcast explore these things. But specific to dowels. how critical Do you think the success of DAOs are to Web 3s ability to mobilise and coordinate?

Luis: I think that is important apart from him, and that is why going to those in the first place, right the like, if you look at the different waves of the internet, you have web one and the first web in the like 1980s. It was more about being able to use Polish stuff on the internet like basically blocks and that was a thing that kind of like cold widespread very quickly. Then like there was work two social media. So you have like, normally posting and sharing but also discussing on those topics that were pushed in, pushed yourself. And then now it’s web three and web three actually allows you to take action. So there is a lot of things there are a lot of like discussions are going on a lot of great ideas out there, but none of them are actually solving happen. But most of them actually don’t even have a real life impact. And so when we were three, we’re gonna actually take that social capital and make it meet financial capital. And so that combination which actually, which, like the things that make the world change, right, and that’s the thing that I’m really excited about.

Jamie: And, you know, I kind of look at a lot of the presentations that you do, and panels and talks or just even things you write the word freedom comes up a lot. And again, I think, you know, reference in the context of software, but I think more generally, freedom seems to be kind of a driving part of your personal mission at least. So it’d be good to understand that a little bit more. So as far as I’ve seen, you describe it. Again, in the context of DAOs. There is this, there is this opportunity, where we now have a new word universal cross border, nonviolent collaborative effort. To fight for our freedom, and that this has the potential to be unstoppable. Because it’s permissionless, I presume, is is an innovation. And, you know, you kind of reference the idea that DAOs will not only begin to potentially replace corporations, but also, you know, that the state itself, so it would be good to understand how you see the role of DAOs. In that context, there’s kind of a counterbalance to surveillance capitalism and the current paradigm.

Luis: Yeah, I think that was ultimately our communities. And so if you look at communities, they leave a bunch of things to people but the most important one thing is belonging. So right now you’re seeing these very interesting trend where more and more people are feeling that they belong, listen to this macro kind of like monster communities that are nation states, and they start belonging mark, these are smaller communities from the internet. And so those communities can be anything come A theorem community, it can be a subreddit, which supports, like cute puppy memes, like whatever. A community can be anything. But this feeling of belonging is very real. And so I think we could really use that feeling more right now. I think we are losing hope as like humankind, I think people are. And you can see this in culture, like compared to like, you know, culture back in the 80s, and stuff like that that idealism is hardly preserved, because there isn’t a common vision of where the world is going. And so traditional institutions are just failing us. And that is creating this kind of a spiral of us lack of optimism and lack of hope. And I think the way we take it back is finding belonging via communities again.

Jamie: I know you’ve talked about the idea that if you look at the startups of of web two, and those that have kind of gone on to dominate the web, that have come out of Silicon Valley, they’re only really trying to solve a first world problems. I should In your Spanish, do you think it’s a coincidence that an alternative to that paradigm is not coming out of the US is coming out of Europe? And in particular, do you think there’s anything about the kind of Spanish psyche and Spanish culture that would feed into this because I know you know, Spanish has a very rich history around corporatism and alternative models of organisation and

Luis: actually, the the name Aragon came from this kind of like province that there is this being called Aragon, which actually was a place where there was the like, most lengthy like sustained anarchism in the world that has happened. I think they’re in six years in late the 30s. And so that is extremely interested in like, I read a bunch about how people were coordinating without this kind of like central monitor. And that worked for a few years, then of course, like fastest and gilded such as many other things and work in the world. But yeah, it was only thing that we can come back to that then we have like amazing tools that enable us now to coordinate millions People and not like the hundred people that they work with anything before in Spain in that province. So I think that is very powerful. And one of the reasons that actually three or that’s the Aragon is that we were leaving the US and trying to raise money for our previous startup in 2016. And then Donald Trump won the elections. And I remember that night really like I was, I think I was drinking either again tonic or like Bayless, something that was just like, like, they looked on TV and be like, What the fuck is going on is the end of like democracy as we know it. So we need alternatives.

Jamie: and this is probably at this point, it will be useful for the audience to explain at a high level, what is the Dow as I said, some of the audience, you know, very deep into the space but we are trying to onboard new people and it’s probably the one that sounds the most intimidating, but actually is is relatively simple.

Luis: Yeah. So DOW means decentralised, autonomous organisation. And so basically what it means is that it is an entity that has no central leadership or management. And that is autonomous in the sense that he is able to incentivise others to make its mission happen. And then it’s an organisation in the sense of like, there are certain rules and it is no use chaos, there’s like some organisation there. So, basically for me the main characteristics that are thou hast is that they are very good at attracting and incentivising contributors, they are very good at also managing and pulling funds from anywhere in the world. And they also very good in governing those funds. So at the end, how I like to look at it is that Bitcoin enables permissionless like money and out enable permissions governance and organisation.

Jamie: So I know some people have said a Bitcoin was a form of Dao, but clearly you see a kind of distinct separation in terms of the evolution of what what they’ve what they’ve become, but it would be useful to do kind of a quick history of daos as you see, I think The most famous now in everybody’s minds that managed to cut through into mainstream media, sadly, was the Dow where lots of money got raised and then subsequently kind of frozen and hacked. But obviously, the kind of concept of a dao has been around for longer than that. And you could argue it’s been one of the main missions of certainly the theatre community for s me time.

Luis: Yeah, exactly. I think if you look back, like 2014, and stuff like that, you have like a bunch of posts about almost sci fi posts about the house being almost a main theme that actually like drove a theory and systems. I think funnily enough, a theorem is way more focused right now on finance that on social interactions, it’s almost impossible to like do social interactions like the ones we have in Dallas, or in a theory today, because I guess you’re so extremely costly, like I probably spent them dollars today is voting  n stuff.

Jamie: And so the Dao hack happened. I think, at that point, a lot of people started to shy away from the mission of a dao you didn’t so I forget the kind of time difference between that, and then when you would have found it Aragon, but was it in response or reaction to that in a way that you wanted to see it, then effectively, we felt that it had to happen now rather than in 0 years.

Luis: I think it was like a few months of difference. So like, I think they’ll have happened in like summer or spring 2016. And then we started Argonne in October or November 2016. And he wasn’t really in response to that specific issue. I was very surprised, though, that like, no one was working on it. Like people were like, Oh, the Dao is there, and therefore doubts are there. And I was like, well, this is one implementation that failed, but like, that doesn’t mean that the whole concept is flawed forever. The other thing that I was thinking is that these are going to take like a decade will be a thing. And so we got to start early. And we were like, extremely early, like around, you know, 2016 and we race in 2017. And in a steel, we are a long way and everything is extremely early, but you got to start somewhere.

Jamie: And I liked how I think I saw you somewhere say that. The evolution of Dao In the context of the overall journey of crypto is really in response, this idea of forking the idea that, at a certain point, networks can fork with a 51% attack, depending on how consensus is structured, that then makes them inherently fragile. And so there needed to be a way of achieving community dispute resolution. I believe, with Aragon now you’re at roughly a one month period of dispute resolution, which seems pretty good in the context of resolving any disputes. And I know you’ve kind of compared that to trying to get your deposit back from a landlord which stuck out It took over a year. Could you explain the key components to the Aragon stack or kind of a generally Dao technology in the Dao stack?

Luis: Yeah, sure thing. So basically, daos are smart contracts. And so they are like called contracts that run on a blockchain For example, aetherium. And so we’d be able to these architecture of the Very flexible smart contracts that you can use to basically create your own Dao, like you have Lego bricks. So you have Lego bricks, you put them together and you create like whatever kind of a structure you want. Because like, no community is equal to the other and so they they kind of like need this flexibility. Now we’re also working on a couple other things. We’re working on the Aragon court and so I want to work this this dispute resolution mechanism that enables for those to do much more than the smart contracts to think about like the daily lives and interacting with organisations. You have these like very flexible legal agreements in which you can basically write anything that you can write in like English language, for example, to work they conduct to Daos. So you will be able to basically write like a manifesto for your organisation and write simple rules I don’t think we need like super complex complex legal rules yet for that, but you can write a simple stuff like you may not find with this money right? This crazy that like, also they don’t really have that prediction because like code is law comes both ways. For things and for bad things, if you have this kind of layer of protection where you can be like, Hey, this is not in our in our bylaws is not in our Manifesto, I’m going to raise a dispute, you can raise a dispute and the action can get passed. The other thing that we’re building is Aragon chain. And so one chain is a blockchain that is very optimised for social interactions and our interactions. Because I think a theory is great for many use cases. Like if you want to hold millions of dollars of value. Ethereum is probably the right choice because it’s so secure, but you have to pay for security, right? So like the way I was converting it is that if there is like Manhattan, and then you have like these suburbs, which are like smaller chains, so many cities, we have the like, I don’t want to say you have like the generic now like contracts interfaces, and then you have Aragon court and you have Aragon chain.

Jamie: So you talk about Aragon, the Aragon network anyway, is the first digital jurisdiction. And as you say, you can have these digital bylaws with whatever level of detail that you want. We’ll have whatever level of nuance you want. I know a lot of works being done in what’s called the Laos space, which I guess is a legal autonomous organisation. And the thinking around that is that there needs to be legal wrappers for Daos. And that could be in any number of forms. It could be a cooperative, actually one of them that’s being discussed, or it could be other forms of like nonprofit organisations. The intention there, I’m assuming is a you might need to it might be desirable to protect participants from the liability of some of the activities of a Dao. And then presumably the second pieces that some people believe that it’s a spectrum and perhaps not everything needs to be resolved on chain. In some cases, code is not law. So something might be executed in code. But there could be a claim after that execution, but by somebody, what’s your perspective on that space is for you, that ideal outcome that everything happens on chain or You know, do you look to kind of cater to the wider spectrum?

Luis: Yeah, I think blockchain server is low computers. So I think if we can take everything we can out of the chain, then it’s better. So actually, I would like for most things to happen on chain. I think if you look at it, like the very, very, very main things that need to happen on chain are buying the actions when it comes to fund management. Because like the funds need to be there. And they’re Eastern like in a central, like personal should be able to use withdraw them, right. So I think fund management needs to stay there, a bunch of other things, even voting, you can probably take off chain with like multiple scalability mechanisms. And so, yeah, I think there are a lot of ways that we can take things off chain and then also the aspect of like, the governance itself, like I used to think that governance through will happen on chain and that software was the most important thing in the stack. But actually, we have figured out that communities have a very important part of the stack which is social, right? So there’s a lot of like, off chain interactions that happen that silver has to facilitate the silver has to kind of like, you know, fade in the background, because those are the important things.

Jamie: Yeah, we had the pizza part of meta cartel on the podcast recently and he was very much advocating for the idea of the meet activity that happens around the Dao is often the kind of glue in the bond. So one of the things that you mentioned in there is this this concept of a manifesto or a manifesto based organisation, and I know you’ve spoken about that in the context of serving more long term goals that are aligned perhaps with all stakeholders rather than just shareholder supremacy in the context of a corporation. And the idea that if Bitcoin say had a manifesto is Satoshi had created a manifesto, then there would be less ambiguity at these inflection points which cause the potential for forking when people Get lost in the ambiguity, it becomes fractious. So I know that Aragon you have a manifesto. Could you talk us through the things that you think are important for the metadata effectively?

Luis: Yeah, definitely. Well, I think the manifesto was an interesting exercise because we, like went to people were sitting on one room. And we’re like, well, we want to give something to the community that they can, like, iterate on. But it needs to be something that is about the generic enough so that people can like kind of relate to it. But it’s also specific enough so that when there is a problem, you can go to it and you can like kind of see the ranking of the things that you value as a community and then make decisions. So I think the most important part of this manifesto is actually like the order What is your very like number one thing that you will then compromise whereas the second, what is the third one, and once you rank these values, it can be like as simple as like values. And so like, for example, in the crypto community, there are communities that will decentralisation above everything else in other spaces. simple user acquisition right and so there are different trade offs, but I think having them clear early on is a huge advantage.

Jamie: What’s that sequence? Aragon what is one two and three.

Luis: So, basically we have like four main things, if you look at them like most of them are kind of broadly encoded in the whole kind of like crypto sphere. Like for example, in the case here, you know, the first one is sales oriented. So, that is pretty important, like getting people either voice or exit. And then obviously, like something where you create collaboration mechanisms where you cannot exercise violence, kind of like this one mechanisms. Then there is the decentralisation one. Like funnily enough, like we rank decentralisation like I think third. So it’s like no, you’re like first one, but basically like decentralising power and so that is, that is very important. But if you look at this, like so, so we’re in these like users, and even then the voice makes it this ranked even before like actual decentralisation of power. And then you have the creation over longer validators Short term profit. And then finally, the systems being inclusive. And so that is more about not inclusive in the sense that anyone can participate, but also inclusive in the sense that they need to be usable. And that’s the one thing that I’m actually kind of scared about in the crypto ecosystem right now, things are not usable by real people. And so, therefore, gender inclusive. So yeah, that’s a bit of a rundown of the values that we have.

Jamie: Right? Yeah, as you say, I think you know, several of those would be high priorities on my list for the space generally. So I know a big kind of topic. As stacks maturing, you’re starting to get more participation. The last step I heard was you had 600 organisations using the Aragon network in some way. I don’t know if that’s gone up, gone up or Dao recently, and that you have 7% participation from token holders and holders in terms of how they participate using those tokens and the network, which is how they effectively votes. Could you talk us through Thinking about how you increase levels of participation.

Luis: One thing that we realised was that the important thing about participation is not actually the amount of people that participate, but the outcome of the decisions. So I think that is a very, very, very main thing to summarise. In democracy, we like, kind of like get abstracted around, what is the end? And what is the means. And like, voting is just a means to an end. And the end is good decision, right? And so once you look at that, then think, well, maybe the system needs more participation because of security, because like, if you have low participation, then the system can easily be hacked, or attacked in different ways. I think in terms of increasing participation, the best way is to make forum invisible and make it as easy as like, clicking that like button. And so that’s something that we’re like very sad about. We’re working on this library called Aragon connect that will enable developers to make it that easy, and so we can forward to that. There’s also like the implementation Team collaborate did were they put an article out on telegram so you can basically vote by clicking a Like button. And that, for me is how it should be it should be used very easy.

Jamie: And I know you’ve mentioned that there could be a threshold to the size of the Dao for its effectiveness. And so there’s a preference towards smaller towns with more specific missions, rather than larger and more generalised. And this potential for sub Daos. How are you seeing that play out in the Aragon world, I guess is this kind of sandbox where we’re testing not just the technology, but also the social principles?

Luis: Now, I’m a huge fan of Dunbar’s number which is like the amount of people that we can have empathy or any kind of relationship with. And I really like the number. I think that is true for communities. So I think having communities that are like you know, be enough that you can achieve certain scale but also small enough that you maintain empathy is a huge value out of like, if you look at nation states, I think while the reason they are falling apart is because it is hard to empathise with, like, your fellow inhabitants number 49,000,100. Right, like, it’s just very hard. And so I think having these smaller systems, which are federated is going to be a huge thing. Also in terms of like, technicality, and how rare they are kind of the incentive mechanisms and the doubt itself, right now, that was already for basically the use of clubs, like very small numbers of people interacting. And I think we are like, those primitives are evolving. And so we’ll be able to like how dao was or how they get 1000 members, and then 10,000 and then we can probably have a nowadays use kind of an on like, unlike climate change that where you can onboard like billions of people, but I think that it’s still kind of far away.

Jamie: So Dunbar’s number is 130 140 friends, I can’t remember now. I remember it’s like 130. Yeah, so 150 to Canada Mexico. So be interesting to see. Obviously, once you have more data from what’s going allarakha, and if that’s a truism across, you know, the effectiveness of Daons. I know you’ve also mentioned that it’s also about, of course, this is, I guess, mission specific. But the idea of having a higher barrier to entry gives people I guess, to use Tellabs word skin in the game. So like Moloch Tao obviously had a very high threshold for you to participate. And presumably, that led to a high level of participation. Do you think that there’s some universal truth, like, like the Dunbar’s number, or do you think it’s going to be highly specific to the mission of the Dao and all these variables around barrier to entry cost to entry and stuff like that?

Luis: There was always like some primitives that you can trace in like the human brain and psychology, but I think that generally you will very much depend on the Dao and the mission. So like, if you look at Moloch, for example, Moloch needed to have a very high barrier to entry, because you want a number of people that are very interested in housekeeping In the game into the theorem ecosystem, which is a highly specialised ecosystem, I think as we move to those that are more and more like closer to the mainstream, we will see that those barriers of entry kind of go down, just because otherwise it’s going to be very hard to onboard people. So I’m actually a huge fan and believer of open house. We haven’t seen them in the wild yet MMA, like a couple like out there, but that was where you can use come in, contribute, be rewarded, in go out if you want. I think that is a for me like they’re kind of like mind blowing model,

Jamie:  I guess how do you then marry that with the kind of free software and issues so you’re saying at the beginning, this idea that the great thing about software for you is that you could come from humble beginnings and and participate in the internet? I guess now, you’re the promise with crypto has always been that people can begin to participate in a new economic system. They still need something to play but the barrier could be as low as a fraction of a Bitcoin or equivalent. You know crypto right now arguably be said to be an extreme form of capitalism in a way. How do you see it coming at the spatial a slightly different perspective, where the reality of defy and everything’s today?

Luis: I think it is very important that we think about ways that people can earn crypto, because I mean, you can accumulate wealth via capital increase in value or via work. And so I think right now, we are very much we saw that very much from the other aspects from like with Bitcoin as a store of value. But I think we need to work towards like making people Aragon and right now it’s like, the perfect time because unemployment is through the roof. So if we are able to actually offer these people that alternative that provides them with some rewards and you know, some capital, I think that would be ideal. The problem though, and something that I’m very like disilusional about is that we are so much into our bubble, and like creating financial derivatives portfolio, financial derivatives, portfolio defence or directives that we like. Just don’t have The capacity to like, think about how to actually reach mainstream audience. And that’s the audience that like needed right now. And that’s why I’m frustrated because I crave actually ready now to onboard millions of people who don’t have a yacht. And we’re not there yet.

Jamie: Yeah, and that’s a really good segue into a trend that I’m kind of watching slightly to distance. I think it’s largely because of age or because I’m not so heavily into gaming space, but it feels like there is definitely a generation that are bringing about kind of virtual ways of play and work kind of almost as the same thing. And it feels like if there’s going to be a gateway for millions of users, billions of users into crypto, and in particular, Daos, it could most likely come from gaming and perhaps a slightly younger generation. And so we’re starting to see a lot of this kind of merging of culture with rage quits and various other kind of terminology and language Which similarities? How do you see? How do you see this merging of gaming and thousand is that relevant to Aragon, and your network.

Luis: I think that is super interesting because you can have like these towers, which allow you to earn money while sort of playing, because we think about it like work in play are kind of like very inter mingled in a way, in the sense that like, you have some rules, incentives, and then like, you have different levels, and then you can earn things. And so in the gaming world, you can earn like, you know, maybe some coins that may or may not have value. In work, you earn coins that hopefully have value, but it is pretty much the same kind of like structure, right? And so, we have seen more and more how this house gamify the process of working, which I think on one hand is very interesting, on the other hand is kind of dangerous as well, because when those things get too much garbage in the way of each other, you may end up having a weird psychological issues where you feel that you don’t feel that way or that you’re playing nor working, which is something that maybe we don’t want in a world full of like kind of inputs. And like, all of these things are going on, in our case with a lot of this media kind of use inputs everywhere going on. So I have like mixed feelings about it.

Jamie: And is gamification, the idea of gamification, does that feed into the product development allow you thinking about how to coming back to that participation, increased levels of engagement through gamification of using something like Aragon?

Luis: Yeah, they were looking at it, we have always been like, extremely respectful of our users. And so like, not trying to obviously not trying to solid data, or is not trying to like spy them, obviously, not trying to treat them kind of like like rabbits. And I feel that eventually social platforms actually to people that way, where they have like, you know, kind of like, like the carrot and the stick and they like try to make you play their game. So to say Until you basically don’t have more dopamine to release. And the when trying to look at it, it’s actually interesting. Like I think gamification can be, can be an interesting force, but there is actually a force, it actually is stronger. And that is belonging. And so if you make people connect to their communities and belong to their communities via your product, I think you are going to get way better kind of long term engagement, rather than just releasing dopamine hits via nice buttons or animations or just kind of like, people liking each other’s Instagram stories or whatever.

Jamie: Yeah, well, I mean, I guess that then comes back to your Manifesto, right, which is, the first one is the user sovereignty. And so I guess that then is your Northstar in terms of how you roll out the product. Well, look, time’s up. It’s been fascinating talking with us. Thanks for your time. As I said, I’m very grateful for the work that you’re doing. Our team at Outlier Ventures have and do use Aragon and it is as easy as you say, of course it’s still nascent. You’re always very clear to say it’s experimental, but it’s certainly easier to use than the Dao’s were, you know, even six months 12 months ago. So thanks for coming on the show and good luck with everything.

Luis: Yeah. Thank you Jamie.

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