podcasts

Building Institutional Grade & Compliant Products on DeFi, Michael Weber of DIA

podcasts

Building Institutional Grade & Compliant Products on DeFi, Michael Weber of DIA

August 2020

Posted by

Jamie Burke

CEO and Founder

As an early investor in Bitcoin and Ether Jamie went ‘all in’ during 2013 founding Outlier Ventures, Europe’s 1st venture fund and platform dedicated to blockchain and Web 3....read more

Michael is a serial Web 3 founder, since 2014, and one of the rare DeFi entrepreneurs with a background as an actual financial services professional, investment banker and analyst at places like Bloomberg, Nomura and UBS. We talk about his mission at DIA to crowdsource trusted institutional grade data oracles in DeFi that will allow crypto to mature as an asset class for mainstream adoption with products like indices, derivatives and loans that will attract trillions of dollars of capital. We talk about why Europe, and in particular his home country of Switzerland, are leading the world through standards, taxonomies and regulation to become a global centre for this emerging capital market.

Posted by Jamie Burke - August 2020

August 2020

Posted by

Jamie Burke

CEO and Founder

As an early investor in Bitcoin and Ether Jamie went ‘all in’ during 2013 founding Outlier Ventures, Europe’s 1st venture fund and platform dedicated to blockchain and Web 3....read more

Key Themes:

  • The present and future interplay between CeFi and DeFi
  • Crowdsourcing trusted institutional grade data oracles
  • The outsized role of Europe and Switzerland in crypto

Listen on iTunes

Transcript:

Jamie Burke
Welcome to the founders of web three series by ally ventures and me Your host Jamie Burke. Together we’re going to meet the entrepreneurs that backers and the leading policymakers that are shaping web three. Together we’re going to try to define what is web three, explore its nuances and understand the mission and purpose the drivers founders. If you enjoy what you hear, please do subscribe, rate and share your feedback to help us reach as many people as possible with the important mission that is web three.

Today, I’m really happy to welcome Michael zabba I said I was gonna say in the appropriate accent or whether if I was gonna anglicise it found the data, the Wikipedia for financial data and others console’s Oracle platform that allows market actors to supply and use transparent crowd verified price data and Oracle’s for a fair and symmetric financial defy ecosystem. Welcome, Michael.

Michael Weber
It means thank you very much for having me. Thank you very much for setting up this podcast.

Jamie Burke
So maybe as a disclaimer, I know Michael quite well, he went through our accelerator and ally ventures he was Cohort Two, sorry, co one, the first one last year. And the last time I saw him was dancing in a Shanghai karaoke bar, if I’ll put the link to the video in the high chief’s comments, just to embarrass him and probably me, so

Michael Weber
instead, shame on you dancing and karaoke?

Jamie Burke
Yes. Right. Exactly. Let’s let’s quickly move on. So some of the reasons why I wanted to get you on the show. So You are rare in that you’re from an institutional finance background prior to coming into crypto. But you’re also a web three native, you’ve done a number of ventures now where you’ve been a founder building out kind of innovative stuff at the edge of the space. And so as the industry is trying to mainstream crypto, I think you’ve got quite a unique perspective, perhaps a pragmatic approach, but also one better grounded in reality from an institutional mindset, the work that you’re doing it the but also a number of other initiatives such as Dappy with the Frankfurt Business School, is addressing how to professionalise crypto as an asset class and attracting or encouraging institutional money, many of which would be your ex colleagues and customers to both trade in and build out institutional grade products on top of crypto which is of course, the holy Grail to making this a trillion dollar market rather than where it is today. And given this background, I’m interested to understand your perspective on this interplay between sci fi, centralised finance and what’s now been called defy decentralised finance, how these two worlds collide, whether it’s transformative or disruptive. And, you know, you are rare in that you’ve really been bringing in making success in bringing in a number of major financial institutions into the space in your such as Deutsche Bank, UBS, as well as public and financial backing from both the EU and the Swiss government. I think this is a definitely the European angle that I want to touch upon. So to give some context to you and to talk through kind of your origins, you originally studied economics and physics at the University of Cologne, which is probably why you’re slightly kooky, I would say the economics bit makes sense. Perhaps the physics bit might too. And you went on to do a diploma masters in management escp Business School. And then, as I said, he went into kind of financial services industry. So Bloomberg, where you were a global data analyst in 2007, with BNP Paribas as a derivative trading desk 2008 Lehman Brothers, and Nomura, where you’re now list, and then continued there into 2010 2011. And then on to bahnsen, where you were, chief executive, I think that was your first startup, right? In 2014, where you worked on sustainable digital currency called Bitcoin. Could you tell us a little bit about that before we kind of move into the stuff that was your first startup, but actually, you Your first venture in in crypto digital assets. So 2014 roughly where I found it outlier. So you’re one of the first people certainly in Europe coming into the space.

Michael Weber
Thanks for the intro on to also bridge to to bonds on and the first touch points with DLT in the end, as well as kryptos. I think it’s important what was always driving me was a natural interest for numbers and yet just first materialised in physics, but also obviously in economics and later the career in finance. What I always liked about numbers, data sets in itself is the option to measure and actually on top of those measurements, to try to analyse the state of full on a basis that is standardised, partially also extremely objective and is always absorbing reality in the bay debt you can quantify it in the end numbers, as well as the data. Physics is something I really enjoy diving into. But finance is something where I really saw numbers working and having a fundamental real life impact actually, on myself from as some daily spending habits to peace I get all my bank accounts to later now in my life, actually, your interest rates I have to pay on water just for my house. This in the end, it’s all dependent on measurable data. And while I love the financial angle, the numbers from an angle I wasn’t too enthusiastic or actually not at all about sci fi that you call it so the traditional way of doing finance from BNP Paribas derivative trading to investment banking actually venture from London, the can touch on this a bit later. And bear also see is the enormous potential for this traditional supply plates. But what really triggered me in the financial space was the diving into blockchain really quite early and developing a first solution with ponsel. That was using blockchain as a settlement and clearing house in the apps and have a particular focus on loyalty points since these are extremely fragmented systems. In the UK, you actually purchase something at Tesco, Sainsbury’s and a few others because you have free to call the free cards at one actually have the chains have a massive amount of fragmented IP, infrastructure and different database layers. And this is where I saw a real life application actually also blockchain but it also materialised in the angle I have to the technical applications. It’s really a compliance for angle. So it’s one I think this also originates out of my habits in the EU, actually my interest for regulations and my touch points. So early endeavours in cryptocurrencies but coin, but you mentioned, it was always important for me to also see that this is being able to be bridged and also accessible by the for the traditional mass market. So not an early digital structure that only a few can actually access, but something is tasked with regulatory bodies, institutional bodies, and 2014. This was really a first discussion with the German regulator often, there was no way to get through this, because even the definition of Imani which is a subsection of cryptocurrencies wasn’t completely clear. And even further a definition of Yeah, actually crypto assets or loyalty points in the form of property. So I always like to space. And I think my drive to use data here also in this context of dia is something that can, in the end, in the long term really, fundamentally shake up finance and to be how we handle and use data nowadays.

Jamie Burke
And so there were a couple of other ventures in quite difficult to people that joined the space that early both, as you say, because of the immaturity of the technology, but then also the regulatory environment. So you did some work in the digitalization of insurance, claim management, leveraging DLT, there was block state where you looked at smart contract securities, eventually kind of leading you through to do which you founded in January 2017, as I said, which is kind of described as the Wikipedia for financial data and we’ll kind of get to that a little bit later. So let’s first talk about the asset class and the model. As you see it today, obviously it’s evolved a lot since 2014. But what are the structural challenges that exist in the market today? And how would you gauge its maturity?

Michael Weber
I think in the last few years, there was tremendous, actually increasing the ability to scale up on a tech infrastructure and business but we also fundamentally build on different blockchain solutions to help us also actually roll this out in more applications. And but in terms of the concrete asset class, in particular with my reading glasses from the traditional financial space, this is still at from a taxonomy classification. For the majority seen as a very exotic assets, even Bitcoin classical aquariums and two biggest market caps are still struggling to find really a harmonised taxonomy and therefore, also An uptake into the depot’s and assets and the management of the mass market not only the big player, but also retail investors out there. And I think one of the key ingredients that is being massively developed part of lean objectives, but something that should be focused on is really this bridge towards compliance and what is actually speed safety. So, if I want to invest actually in, in an SM crucial for me as a retail investor, as an institutional investor, is transparency on the acid I invest in, as well as reliability that this is gonna exist and adhere to the rules of the market. And this is something where I really see in the last year tremendous increase in the uptake from security tokens that far. Take the bridge from a traditional crypto asset into the reach of a normal asset portfolios, first assets very successfully and compliantly. Actually tokenized. Also rich to this traditional legal set up the prospectuses and and this building up defy in my few bids and tremendous opportunity preached there because it not only opens the gate for crypto assets, but it uses a methodology that could collect more and more different varieties of assets. What I mean is the started off from loans first actually tries on derivatives and traditional indices, but has now in my view really come to a breaking point where this isn’t only a crypto play anymore. It’s about more and more assets wrapped into this deity layer and this is what I always found it particularly interesting, not so much crypto speculation, but the technical

Jamie Burke
So what are the attitudes of the institutions with your old colleagues and customers? The irony of this industry is the information asymmetry, the capacity that exists. How do these institutions look at the asset class

Michael Weber
right now? For the majority of what I see it has progressed from being exotic frightening to being interesting to slowly really becoming something that is crucial for a digital strategy. So vile a few years ago to find a traditional institution that isn’t even does custody for presence was a major pain point. This has actually opened up Yeah, massively in the last years. And then I talked to this institutional players going back also to safety as well as transparency. I think this is important. Typically what they are still struggling with, not so much themselves, but really for a push again to the regulator. So from standardisation something that we tackle a bit, one of the initiatives that you raised earlier the Frankfurt School of finance, to actually the safety to being able to forward this to the customers and investors in a way where they first of all understand completely, and secondly also can transfer this knowledge and to safety to the end customer. This is partially still lacking. And I think information as a metric is something that is actually in the benefit of the fintechs and defy ecosystem for this moment, because even big institutional banks as some that back us but even going to tier one investment banks from Goldman JP, these banks still need to actually hire this competences because they had such a big focus on Pure KPI fulfilment on a national need but not building up to digital competences. So it has shifted from being curious and interesting about into in tremendous demand actually into the space and vehicles that are compliant and to enable to cross the bridge.

Jamie Burke
So you kind of referenced this initiative Dappy that you have with Philip Sanders is a good friend of an outlier, and has been doing great work in advocating for the asset class and the innovations that come from DLT from the Frankfurt Business School. Could you talk us through a little bit about that, as I understand it, it’s kind of trying to create a framework a taxonomy and a kind of standardisation around the asset class to serve as a bridge for centralised finance, traditional finance into the space of defy

Michael Weber
for this press. Also to words about DiaData and how it references in this context. But what you introduced as the big PDF or financial data, when we are building is a radical new model actually called the handling of financial data, which touches on DLP. It’s not a silo system. It’s not trying to sell API calls. It’s not a new Bloomberg terminal. It’s a radical approach of answering the question, how did you actually come up with this number? With a complete open source process from the sourcing of this data point? how you calculate this number two, a historical layout of each and every calculation you made on top of this? Now saying, how did you come up with this numbers in the traditional way, requires a lot of free consolidation of different databases. somebody’s looking into fragmented data sets if an existing database or if a database then existed two years ago is not there anymore. It pretty much breaks into audit trail. And this is what we saw really as a DLT application. In the end answering this question, how did you come up with this number, with this price for Bitcoin with this price for a government bond, with an option to perfectly traced and schools each and every data point that we publish, completely open source accessible to everybody, with a total actually clustering the integrity of this. Now, how is this relevant actually to dumpee and also this initiative that in particular talks to regulators on the European level, regulators are massively struggling in finding a standardised way, a harmonised way, how they can track and trace despite an ecosystem of crypto transactions, and also reconcile actually how decisions for pricings texts autonomies classifications for meat and and bulky is an initiative that is, in particular filling this gap. So giving regulators as well as more traditional financial institutions a tool, also an open source tool, that we have a standardised taxonomy and classification model for digital assets from defy digital assets to more exotic defy lending or government bonds actually also issued in the form of a digital assets and what donki really provides here, and also to say this in this podcast, it’s an open initiative that everybody can join. They’re really feedback from majority of stakeholders is highly appreciated, and really bridges this to the regulator regulatory consensus that we are implementing now for more than one year. It’s a good thing to see regulators are interested in this because it’s so simple problem for them standardised actually tool to track and trace the assets. But again, it also builds a secure tool to actually issue this digital assets and enable this bridge into this EU compliant way.

Jamie Burke
So why is all this happening in Europe? You know, why is this the Frankfurt business school? Why is data coming out to somewhere like Switzerland? Why all of this within the continent of Europe, obviously Switzerland and Europe, separate jurisdictions, they’re related but separate. Why here? Why not in the US? Why not, you know, elsewhere in the world.

Michael Weber
Europe, indeed, is a unique opportunity and also partially a pain due to the fragmented landscape for digital assets, a Europe something where I actually spent my Korea also dealing with us regulations, from Basel three regulations. Then saving our s now in terms of covert because banks actually have enough cash and we learn from the last crisis to extremely rigid regulations like with a tool that are sometimes hard to implement, but then again, enable a perfectly efficient actually financial market to actually also a very concrete and innovative playing field for players in the digital asset space, in particular in Switzerland, provides, in our view, one of the most attractive jurisdictions to roll out what we have di di here, building this bridge between kryptos and compliance. Europe has besides two regulations I mentioned in particular for the digital asset as well as Oracle space a regulation that perfectly takes really teachings from sci fi, to define and namely benchmark regulations. This is also something where we focused our product development on in the last years because our institutional clients are coming, in particular with this problem of actually going back to this question of how do you come up with a concrete answer? It’s a question that is not only applicable for digital assets, but also retail market ETFs. To go deep into this, for example, in the Corona, actually volatility in equity as well as on markets, the fluctuation of prices something that traditional financial models can’t get much deal with from actually stopping trading which is something which is impossible and define in itself to actually also manual reconsolidation and export manipulation of data calculations. This highlighted the need again for broken and actually laid Both manual labour intensive DS existing systems are now to go back through benchmark regulations again, see it’s in the end also learning of EU regulations from the crisis of the last 100 years to provide an extremely stable and safe pricing methodology for all financial assets from ETFs to derivatives to your pension fund. And these security levels increase the more assets are actually under management. So, if we do an exotic deal on some oil trades, we won’t need five regulated parties to trade to calculate the price on this. But if we go into a pension funds and want to allocate this money, we would need to have under EU regulations three to five different data sources. Because a consensus of one or two major players pushing this data into this price feed simply isn’t safe enough. Just took one blind while here on the site node is a major example of how 20 key players can actually reach consensus to manipulate the whole market. But all of this problems, the euro area has actually answers for all of these problems. And they developed this in a painful consensus mechanisms in the last few years. And something also for us as a FinTech company. It’s not always easy to tackle this environment, but it provides tremendous opportunities. And Switzerland itself is also a special case itself. Government tokens utilities. It’s a reason by a majority of blockchain protocols from 2014 are located in Switzerland. The direct coordination of the regulator enabled also us to build our company down, but now going on so in a more crucial inclusion of our token governance, specific right allocations of tokens, we are actually able to talk to regulator and get an explicit answer for us here. Something if I look at the United States with government totals, like even the question for a Bitcoin ETF that we have here since six years, and they’re still struggling to actually implement the first one is something that the EU provides our home crowd, our home playing front, and in our view, also really innovative ecosystem and their beef pasta our product and focus our development.

Jamie Burke
So we keep talking about sci fi and d phi, is probably good to make a distinction like where do we draw the line? What is sci fi? What is defy? How do they interact? What is the interplay is defi disruptive to sci fi? Is it transformative? How can they coexist?

Michael Weber
If they can coexist? It’s also a question I’m asking myself a lot in recent years to go into Maybe in the last in the recent example of loans as well as yield generation, and to put their sci fi and defy a bit into this perspective, let’s take sci fi and getting actually a mortgage or loan from your bank, you need to go there, you need to get probably completely naked from your salary statements to personal income statements to find the information that the bank simply wants to know, actually, is this relevant or not as the different question. So you have a massive amount of intermediaries actually trying to provide trust automatically and kind of a security check for quite a simple actually function off checking the liquidity and actually to bet the payback probability of this take off too long. Now comparing the sci fi space where you go to the bank, file in the majority of documents, pay a lot of pieces To all of the intermediaries looking at defy, you go to an anonymous platform, you give out your collateral, actually, you say how much you want to lend, and without ever knowing the counterparty or specific manual reconsolidation of one centralised guy making the decision dependent if he’s in a good or bad mood or wants to dig into this, this decision is made and it’s made standardised. It’s made harmonised and transparent. And with a rule set that is the same for everybody. Now, if this applies to each and every asset set in the next year, something I touch my views in a second. But we already see the impact on something like loans an extremely lucrative business for the traditional financial banks, actually, for a majority of the banks now since they cut investment banking, one of the key revenue drivers taking tremendous piece on all of this loans. They get from central banks. This is in my view really getting traumatically disrupted. I used to split reality. But in this case it’s true. And I see really this as a first application only of d phi d phi here shows the beauty of DLT in my view, and this is the settlement clearing, and really taking out the middleman of this transactions. And the underlying here is the crypto assets that are traded around and loans and interest given but they are already the first use cases with ETFs on top of this so that you actually don’t need a bank or BlackRock issuing the securities but a standardised tool set with people acting on top of this, if I it’s not only limited than two ETFs something like derivatives where you have a manual process where if I talk to my institutional guys, it’s frightening to see you still send facsimiles and paper trades around to Make trillion dollar deals across the counters. So also put this methodology in the end to bring tremendous efficiencies in middle back office settlement and clearing work. And I really think the main differentiation as a major automatisation of middle and back office work, which also leads actually to the differentiation and obstacle to overcome this old structure, no middle and back office settlement person will push a defy application because it’s a classical case it will make the job obsolete. And in this value chain of defy, it’s also questionable if you need suspension ever again. So the printer is being built and I think, defy will have a much bigger impact on finance than kryptos and Icos that in the last five years.

Jamie Burke
So obviously, at the heart of this, this new possibility or defy or smart contracts data and as you kind of touched upon earlier and as a name your company dear data implies, you believe data and its quality is critical to a properly functioning defy system. You also reference law referenced in the introduction, the role of Oracle’s so the importance of Oracle’s in that, could you talk people through that value chain, the data the input the output and the Oracle’s and how currently works? There are kind of a growing number of Oracle provides at the moment. How would you as a bank, an institutional organisation, how would you procure the services these technologies and integrate them into your, you know, your your value chain or supply chain,

Michael Weber
so if di, a the mission is really to unlock data in the sense across a broad value chain and in the major really triggered for me to found this was this experience of the state of being locked up as a metrical in very expensive siloed systems. And this was also something in my view that is getting partially repetitive in the sci fi space with the next data providers specifically for this space that people can trade up on. A d ay ay ay ay ay ay. Yeah, to go back to the example of Oracle’s uses an incompletely open source methodology to source data. So going to the example of a bitcoin price, which was one of the first starting points of Bitcoin article that we published, the major question is also which sources Do you take into account which trades to potentially see as market manipulation or bots trading should you include them should you not include them? And which actually young standardised cleaning do you do on the status sets to then create Put, which exchanges Do you take into account to calculate the bitcoin price? And then also looking besides of life calculations? Was there anything actually changed within the sources within each and every of the status sets that led to this calculation, as some of the major examples in the crypto space are quite unknown. Now, each and every of the situations isn’t one where we say we know the ultimate truth, which exchanges to source finish outlines to clean bitch statistical idols to put on top. But But we say, but the data is we give you the maximum transparency on each and every decisions, and each and every of decisions is hashed and stored in the blockchain. And what the stand creates is, in our view, a perfect open source answer to the question, how did you come up with this number, but also a tool for the company? unit here to create their own Oracle’s and data sources. On top of this methodology, this base is luckily getting more and more traction of Oracle’s because as I mentioned before, also with, for example, eu benchmark regulations, the more and more assets are in space, the more and more parallel data sources you should actually have for your products on top of this, and chaining and band are building some amazing products in the space at other players also popping up for this. I think when we put a particular focus, it’s really transparency across the chain and also then a really open source model to integrate us into other Oracle solutions. So we are not exclusive in using our Oracle speed but the aim is really to use this as a primary, secondary or even safety trigger for existing Oracle’s and a specific value property are really on the transparency angle into community angle. Just don’t I mean, I think it’s interesting you referenced earlier, the problems that have been around Bitcoin ETFs in the US, and the reasons I’ve heard regularly cited are because at the moment, the regulator’s just don’t trust the data associated with Bitcoin and any manipulation that might be happening and at least perspective or attitude on exchanges is that is the primary source of a lot of that data. So I can, yeah, I think the documentation for having greater more trustful data sources and more verifiable data sources is very strong. So I mean, you’ve alluded to some of the differences in the approaches of dia but maybe to just be a bit more specific. So you talk about the crowd a lot. Can you talk about exactly how you unlock the wisdom or the power of the crowd? And what are the kind of benefits that come out of that and put She also challenges like what you know what was different and how you scanning. So the crowd for me, it’s the key tried on our product. And the crowd is in the end what is looking at the skate and what is scrutinising the data. But what is also telling us actually, as a company, what do you need in terms of data in order to improve the product and make it usable? In our case, really think about the crouch, like Wikipedia editors, but think about each and every of the edits actually also stored on a blockchain. So you have a project trail actually of who could criticise editage on manipulated what this is kind of the core of it and to expand on this a bit. We operate within our product also token model for disputing for staking, but also to incentivize specific data generation. For this again, this token that has doubled pension is a key word for us really, critically integrated into product. And now, very specifically with taking actually our product as well as our children, you could go you can go to our platform request any kind of financial data set from real estate pricings. To corporate on pricing, developers actually can use this total and our methodology to criticise what came out of this data request. So let’s say this real estate prices are actually faulty or from the last year, use our token to dispute against us. And again, also using this token via actually arbitrary delegation for dispute handling. So if there’s a public dispute, that not the guy with the most votes, or actually, the biggest streaming mechanisms, actually receives the consensus and gets the vote at something that really actually is Foster’s a broader feedback loop and this is also the major challenge. What we are actually trying or building here is something that is spread sharing this normal crowd creation like you have it in Wikipedia based main should be out for the majority on a centralised reputation model with something that is dramatically decentralised and bear, you really give this ultimate decision what is the system and the outcome of something like a financial data point to a bigger audience. But this is something I really believe in because looking at how this is done at Bloomberg or refinitiv. These are only interns sitting down using public data and then massively actually got monetizing this data on top to sell this off. I think if I look at the defence base that really informs mathematicians that would never end up in this traditional financial space, but could also never buy a Bloomberg terminal. For $2,500 and DiaData really seems to be this tool like, you have a broad access to knowledge nowadays on Wikipedia. If you want to look at pretty much every fact of the world, you will find it there due to the crowd curation. And our mission is really to achieve exactly the same financial data, very specific auditability and compliance.

Jamie Burke
So this isn’t conceptual. So this is working now life token, can you talk through the level of utilisation? You know how many I get when you call them analysts that are in the network that kind of functions that that carry out pinnae gives a sense of scale.

Michael Weber
So I would say if you’re still in early adoption we have around at constant developers in this crowd. It always depends a bit actually on the complexity of data. But what we saw in the last few years and as you say, This product is fully working developed with life products, you can check out on our open source Top and get coin platform is a constant uptick in developer activity. I think this is also because we put a core focus on feedback and interaction rifters early adoption crowd but around at constant developers if we have very standard as data sets, for example later Lastly, we scraped the ECB for an X ray data, enormously standardised API feed, that even I probably could write a scraper of some code. And there are around 100 to 200. Actually 10 comments also on this, it’s an old model so everybody can contribute for this. It’s not like that early adopters have some special standing. And you comments can actually contribute in there in terms of two data sets, does crawling also on a constant basis and it’s good to see also, that slowly, this is really occurring organically quite nicely. More and more data requests are coming in. More and more developers are working on this, we now have fall of two pretty much quickly exchanges as well as past grades just goes to 10,000 plus currency pairs from all of the 500 exchanges, you can actually find on coin market cap. This also goes into all of the fundamentals. So token classification, token taxonomy, coming out of cooperation, we have more academic and compliant institutions. And lately a particular focus on really bringing transparency to the defy data sets with years interest rates, and also security features because one of the key questions coming in data again, want to cry crowd also finds interesting is looking really at key risk. So all of the assets that are flowing into this lending protocols. You also need me to mitigate that some day one admin key has expired. To all of those assets and puts them off. So it’s growing. It’s much a Bloomberg analyst staff with 10,000 Plus, obviously, but it’s not to go and do good things to see if we get constant feedback as well as constitute data requests.

Jamie Burke
So where does all this go? The most immediate thing to me feels like this could enable indices and I know you’re looking at a defy indices a define index at the moment, How far away are we from seeing kind of crypto assets or a defined disease being used by institutional investors and mainstream

Michael Weber
I think very soon. So the interest in defy has not lot led institutional players untouched, not in Switzerland, much in Germany, not in the UK. The uptick in interest also to allocate this money actually into defy has also Just in my view actually found the first few early adopters really in the traditional space. But then again, this is really only the first tipping point of bringing more and more assets from the traditional space into digital assets. And I’m specifically saying digital, because this won’t be only crypto assets. In my view, in the long term, the biggest chunk of assets under management are still in the equity bond as well as derivative markets. And it’s very good to see that defy actually is implementing this fundamental approach. It’s actually building this first spreadsheet is called the ribbon tips for lendings to actually pull more and more money out of the fear ecosystem in the end into the digital assets slash crypto ecosystem, and also demand modest positions happens and this might even also be through the tunnel of a central bank digital currency, which could be an enormous actually benefit for the five because then you could find actually a bridge tool, a normal fee, payment and settlement pitch. So also not as volatility and just hassle of only using crypto assets as a payment in and outwards of this funnel and the massive potential. And all of these elements are all coming together from a regulatory sides with central bank digital currencies really going into life, first Mbps, even in Switzerland, to actually massive interest from the investor side who also want to be part of this defy hype, I would say but in a regulated Bay in a beta they understand and can put into their normal bank accounts. And with the first major uptick really, they’re desperate go into long term and it’s radically changing debate, how derivative and more complex financial instruments actually structured and also dealt to go on. into this again, if you have stopped like convertibles contingency convertibles are even more complex as certificate structures in the traditional financial space. You have massive amounts thrown at this to structure this barriers, you look at data triggers and throw enormous amounts of money on audit companies controlling companies. All of these processes from certificates to derivatives are slowly getting actually built into defy and yeah, this is the tipping point in my view for really brought DLT application in also the traditional institutional space.

Jamie Burke
Great. Look, Michael, it’s been fascinating talking to you as ever. Hopefully I get to meet you in a karaoke bar soon somewhere in the world to see your fantastic dance. Good luck with everything that’s going on with the token I know you’ve begun experiments. Well, you’ve kind of rolled out across this bonding curve, and I believe that you’re open sourcing a lot of stuff associated with that. So good luck with all of that and yet looking forward to singing with you somewhere in a bastard thanks a lot cramming me here

Michael Weber
and follow us on DiaData can say we keep everything open source. Keep track of us.

Jamie Burke
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