Bringing DeFi Products to Market, with Tascha Punyaneramitdee of Alpha Finance Lab


Bringing DeFi Products to Market, with Tascha Punyaneramitdee of Alpha Finance Lab

November 2020

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We talk with Tascha Punyaneramitdee (Pan Pan) about Alpha Finance Lab’s, Bangkok-based, DeFi Studio and how they identify, appraise and execute upon opportunities for new DeFi products, whilst managing risk.

We also look at how they, as an early stage company, engage with the spectrum of institutions, from Binance and their BNB chain, through to their collaboration with SCB 10 x – the venture arm of a local retail bank.

Posted by - November 2020

November 2020

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Jamie Burke 0:13
You’re an early stage web three founder apply to our award winning accelerator programme base camp at Outlier ventures.io slash base camp, we write your first $50,000 check and give you access to 200 mentors, including many of the leading web three founders, and a network of 1000 of the world’s leading investors and exchanges. We’ve helped over 30 startups from 15 countries from all around the world, raise 100 and $30 million in growth funding. It can help you fast track product market fit and where relevant the launch of your token economy. Today, I’m really happy to welcome on Tasha Panja. Neeraj mcdee of alpha finance labs. Welcome Tasha. Did I get the pronunciation perfect.

Tascha Punyaneramitdee 0:58
Hi. Thanks for having me. Yep, you got their pronunciation? Correct.

Jamie Burke 1:02
All right. Well, thank you for the coaching before we started. So alpha finance Labs is a ecosystem of automated yield maximising DeFi cross chain products. Starting on the buy Nance, smart chain, and cerium division is to reform traditional finance in a decentralised manner. And you were previously had a strategy, a band protocol, you have been a product manager at Tencent and investment banker at places like Jeffrey’s. And you’ve pretty much worked all around the world, from San Francisco to London to Bangkok. So the reason why I wanted to get you on the show, there were several. Firstly, you I came across you by seeing that you are backed by some of the leading VCs in the DeFi space, including Spartan group, multicoin, cap and defiance capital. You’re actually the first founder we’ve had from Thailand. And back when I was travelling out in Asia and Southeast Asia, tail end of last year, it feels like a lifetime ago now. And Thailand actually kept on coming up in a number of conversations about how it was hotting up as a destination for crypto and potentially, for DeFi. More generally. So I really want to kind of get to the heart of and of course, that’s where a lot of the band protocol team and founders are also from. So you are first founder from Thailand. And so I want to kind of get into what’s happening there. And you’ve also been announcing a number of really exciting partnerships, I believe, just this week, announced a partnership with SCP 10 x, which is the venture arm of one of the largest commercial banks in Thailand, Siam commercial bank, so wants to explore with you and understand your views on institutional adoption of defy generally. And of course, that in the spectrum of what we mean by institutional, and, of course, the retail adoption that will hopefully be coming off the back of this specific collaboration. So to give a background as to your origin story, going all the way back. You studied chemistry at Stanford, I believe Stanford summer college.

Tascha Punyaneramitdee 3:21
Yeah, so that was more of a summer programme. When I was in high school, my undergraduate degree was in economics at UC Berkeley,

Jamie Burke 3:28
right. And then before that, you were at an international school in Bangkok, Thailand. And then, as you say, you went on to Berkeley and did a BA in economics, graduating in 2016. And received a number of awards whilst you were there, including Leadership Award scholarship. You were finalists in the big ideas, Berkeley competition, which is an innovation contest at Berkeley, and several other things. So clearly, you excelled within academia. And then you spent a few years interning at a mix of different financial institutions, I guess venture capital investment banking, private equity at the likes of creative ventures in San Francisco. Will Shia Patra securities in in Bangkok, and also Bangkok will fly and then Deloitte right? Yep. He then went to be an investment banking analyst at places like Jeffrey’s here in the UK in 2018, Product Manager at 10 cents from 18 to 20. And then you joined BAM protocol as head of strategy, beginning part of this year, Jan. 2020. So tell us a little bit about your journey from Tencent, I guess into into crypto And specifically, and

Tascha Punyaneramitdee 4:54
yeah, definitely. So I have been investing in crypto since about 2016 Have a team and pretty much follow the industry since then. And what I realised is, you know, I came from traditional finance. So finance is something that I have always been interested in. And also cryptocurrency and blockchain. So you know, it used to be something separate, when you know, back in the days and and there was not huge adoption of DeFi. And then when I know of them protocol, and they are at the moment that I joined, they are actually working on their new chain pretty much banned chain and changed from providing data on aetherium itself to be a separate chain. And that’s when I realised that, you know, there is a huge gap that I can bring to them and pretty much drive the adoption of data, Oracle to various DeFi protocols. So I could also tap into the decentralised finance area that I’m a lot more interested in. And you know, that’s really much how I really dig deeper into DeFi. And so a lot of the gaps that can be filled, and which is why I left to build our fasteners lab with my colleague, new Poon as well,

Jamie Burke 6:18
as he did that in July 2020. So it’s all, you know, relatively new, very fast moving. And maybe before we go into some of the detail, it’d be interesting to understand. So as I said in the intro, when I was travelling in Asia last year, especially when it’s in places like Singapore, but even in mainland China, Thailand kept on coming up in conversation in the context of Crypto and DeFi. What, what’s what’s going on there? And is there is a very deliberate reason why you’ve chosen to kind of base alpha financial apps out of Bangkok, rather than, say, moving to Singapore or a different hub?

Tascha Punyaneramitdee 7:02
Good question. I mean, several reasons. Number one definitely is there is a lot of demand and interest from the local community. And as you have, you know, mentioned already that there is significant conversations that Hannah was brought up. And I think that’s mainly because of the developing country nature, where the structure and the financial systems are not as strong as other developed countries. So that’s definitely number one. Number two is that I have been in the space and have talked to multiple people, including different banks, institutional players, or even bigger, you know, bigger firms like Tencent itself, where I used to work and a lot of them actually aware of blockchain of DeFi. And they are Keeley to, you know, move towards that direction when opportunities arise. So, so when combining a lot of different things, and I already was here in Thailand, when I was starting off a finance lab, and I realised No, it makes sense to be here. So so that’s pretty much the background story. And so

Jamie Burke 8:10
we might get onto this a little bit later, especially with the work that you’re doing with one of the commercial banks. But I also heard that at a regulatory level, the government is fairly pro crypto, or at least experimentation in FinTech, generally. And I guess, when you mentioned that there’s a fairly immature kind of retail banking, do you see that as an opportunity to go over the top of, I guess, what might might be a legacy financial system anywhere else?

Tascha Punyaneramitdee 8:41
Uh, definitely, there is, you know, a chance. But at the same time, I would, you know, I would give it some some room for for the government to do an experiment and take time, because when it comes to governmental projects, it definitely can take time. And that’s why we and the CM commercial bank that we partner with, are looking to speed up that governmental processes and you know, their attention to push the fire forward. Because if there’s no partnership happen, if there’s no projects like us in the country, then it could take many more years than then otherwise.

Jamie Burke 9:21
Yeah. And I’m interested to know, what is the attitude towards crypto generally, within an organisation like Tencent, I know, there’s a number of initiatives coming out, especially in the kind of province of Shanghai or city of Shanghai. But, you know, generally if you look in and I don’t know where you are, right, were you involved in a regional part of the Tencent business?

Tascha Punyaneramitdee 9:46
Um, yeah, somewhat. The product that I worked on was pretty much developed out of here, but it is recorded, you know, to Tencent, China, pretty much to oversee the growth of se expansion. And and we are, you know, liaison with them on that front. But in terms of, you know, their sentiment on crypto, I can’t speak much to it. But if I were to make more, you know, my own assumption from what I’ve known of their occurrences with crypto or even their relationship with Chinese government, there are a number of things that I would say number one is pretty much that China and big companies like 10 cent definitely are really aware, and not sure if you’ve known that Chinese government already paid out some of the governmental employees in their digital Yuan. So they are very fast on that. And in terms of Yeah, even if they haven’t gone into crypto, you know, explicitly, but there are a number of projects that they have used similar concepts like digital coin, and digital payment, maybe it’s very different. But if you look in terms of the concept underlying concept itself, one of the products is called juice, which is the music streaming. And they are pretty much finding a way to apply the concept of digital coin and distribute to the users. So users have more say in you know, how the interaction is how how to interact with the artists. So if you look at the underlying level, the concepts are pretty much quite similar in some aspects, although more mature than that a typical crypto coin.

Jamie Burke 11:33
Right. So so maybe before we go into the specifics of alpha, it would be good to get an understanding of I guess the motivation behind setting up alpha, like, what is it a response to? Is it a specific gap in the DeFi? space? Is it a particular problem that you think could be addressed? How do you frame the reason for alpha before we go into the product itself?

Tascha Punyaneramitdee 12:01
Mm hmm. Yeah, there are multiple gaps that I saw and Nichkhun saw, and we agreed on these things. And that’s why, you know, we built our finance lab, with these visions. So So the three problems that we saw pretty much number one is that the a lot of the projects actually spend time, a lot of time building products that, in the end, don’t get adoption, or maybe it’s something that is too advanced for DeFi landscape right now. So so so that’s pretty much 111 gap that we see, right, there is a gap between supply and demand, there are a lot of great products out there as the supply but doesn’t fit with the demand right now, perhaps maybe it’s something that the demand doesn’t want, or some sometimes is, because the supply of products are too mature, you know, compared to the current demand landscape. So that’s number one. Number two is that there are a lot of products as well that are not as user friendly. And we believe that if we want to drive, drive DeFi to to the next stage and expand it even further, we need to make it more friendly. Make it so that users can you know, like make it easy for them to use, and and welcome more new DeFi users by doing so. And pretty much. The third one is how there are so many DeFi projects on aetherium. And that in the end, I mean, the good thing is that there is high composability. But the bad thing is also that drives up the fees and in turns, you know, turn away the retail users from using these products that were built for them. So we combine a lot of different things that we saw and pretty much form our strategy around that and our products around our strategy. And to give you a bit, you know, very high level of how we work and the strategy that we do to pretty much address all of these. One is that we, you know, we take time to understand the problems to understand how, you know, we can come up with innovative solutions, run simulations, on different ideas, and then bounce with different investors invest in different people in the space, right. But at the same time, we don’t rush to build something that we don’t believe is going to stick to the market is going to be really innovative. So that’s why we also have the second strategy, which is a bit different from understanding the problem and and really see how we can build and solve that problem. For the second strategy pretty much to understand the landscape and see what else is you know what else our users want to use, but they don’t have the product to use for and we match the first strategy In a second strategy to build the products, so to give you a very, you know, high level alpha humara came about alpha, which is one of the the first product that we build came about, because we spotted a number of market gaps. And I can tell you later, you know, at a later time or for the next question, but pretty much once we launched, we were able to get a total value log of about 19 million within 24 hours. So we combined a number of market caps that we saw and really push the product out with product market fit. So now we are going to expand from there and then drive DeFi forward. And so that’s pretty much it on the usage part, and building products that have demand. But at the same time, alpha Homura. And all the products that we’re going to build will also have something that’s very user friendly. So at the back end, alpha humara actually automates a number of steps for users. And from the users perspective, they only have to click on three clicks. And that’s pretty much done. So So that’s the second thing. And the third thing that I mentioned is how, you know DeFi on Ethereum is getting very, you know, crowded, and I think in order for us to help, position DeFi, you know, beyond aetherium, of course, it’s going to be aetherium will be a key component, but we have to start expanding DeFi beyond that. And that’s why we are doing our second product on both finance machine and Ethereum to drive that across chain DeFi. Forward.

Jamie Burke 16:44
Yeah, and I know, crushing DeFi is important part of your strategy as well as cross chain liquidity. So just to kind of close off on the structure of alpha labs itself. So is it fair to describe you almost as a studio to incubate and kind of rapidly test and deploy DeFi products? Would these things become their own businesses? Or are Is it a kind of a suite of smart contracts that effectively could be used by the same user? Are they are they for different customer segments entirely.

Tascha Punyaneramitdee 17:26
So it’s a bit of both actually. So each different products have their own problems and have its own unaddressed demand segment. But at the end of the day, there is going to be a way to leverage those products together. So as an example of a humara. There are two types of users on alpha Mora one is eath. lender, so you can get the highest eath lending rate on alpha Homura period. You know, we, you know, just before this podcast, it was about 16% interest rate on eath, just from lending ease, and you cannot find that anywhere else. So that’s from you know, lending perspective, the other user on alpha humara is youth farmers. So if they want to go leverage on youth farming, that’s where you can do it, this is the only place where you can do it. So So working together, you have this one product called Amora. Right. But technically, by taking or I mean by year by taking leverage position on youth farming pool on us, Amora, you’re actually shorting eath, because you have to borrow some eath from the contract to you farm. And as a result, that’s how you can leverage a second product, which is in the perpetual swap area to take the counter position or the long on each position. So you can hedge your risk out. And that’s how we we we are going to connect between the two products, maybe on the front end, or maybe on this smart contract level. But at the end of the day, there’s going to be connection between the two products

Jamie Burke 19:07
understood. And so, at least as far as I understand it, and I appreciate this as a very large casual term, but like Asia generally and maybe as a subset, Southeast Asia, the perception has been in the West and, you know, my perspective formed by people like Dovi, that Asia has been slow to catch on to DeFi. And so I guess the classic assumption would be that somehow you would be localising and existing DeFi. But actually, it sounds very different. It sounds like you’re you’re more focused on introducing entirely new innovations, but perhaps using a local base, a local retail base to kind of grow liquidity and stuff. Is that a correct assumption?

Tascha Punyaneramitdee 19:56
Um, I would not agree. Totally. We also the team is based mostly out of here, our users and our community is actually new globally. And majority of the users on alpha humara are actually from the US, UK, China. And we we are looking to expand, you know, beyond these three regions, for sure. But at the end of the day, I think, you know, crypto and blockchain definitely is a global market. So, liquidity locally helps, but at the same time, we are not limiting to liquidity here.

Jamie Burke 20:35
Yes. So how much emphasis will be placed on the localization of of your products? Are you kind of just starting from the the basis of, you know, these products are going to be introduced at a global level? Because of the permissionless nature? I guess.

Tascha Punyaneramitdee 20:50
So, I would say it’s not focused on localise local community, in a sense that, you know, we are pushing the adoption to people locally, even though they are not in DeFi. Because how we think of it is a lot of the demand right now in DeFi, has been captured. But there are also a number of areas that haven’t been tapped with the current, you know, defined landscape. So that’s the target that we’re targeting. If Thai people or local people are in that target, then definitely they’re there. They’re within our target users. But in terms of, you know, pushing the local adoption, I think that’s more off on the education side, and also on working with local big firms, like SCB tenex, which is the venture arm of one of the largest commercial bank in Thailand to pretty much push out forward the DeFi landscape in Thailand, because without our help, without this partnership, it would take a long time, as I said earlier, so I think in on the local landscape side, it’s more on what can we do to change the landscape more, and as a result can drive more adoption of DeFi from the local retail or institutional players?

Jamie Burke 22:12
Great. Yeah, I definitely want to get into that working relationship, it sounds really exciting to understand the kind of feedback loop that’s happening there. So let’s jump into the products. As I understand it, you’ve got alpha lending, I think you mentioned already alpha amaura. And was there a third one that you’ve recently announced? Or is that an extension of one of these existing products.

Tascha Punyaneramitdee 22:33
So we have alpha Homura. And the second product is this new product in the professional swap area. We haven’t had a name yet. But it’s pretty much an extension as well as a totally new product. So you can think of it as an extension from humara, because it allows you to take the market neutral leverage position, right? By using alpha humara, you’re shorting eath. And as a result, you can take the long position on this perpetual swap product that we’re building. And so that’s, you know, how it extends from humara, in a sense, but it’s also a new target segment that we’re capturing, because we’re actually capturing, you know, the traders who are trading long and short perpetual swaps already on either centralised solutions or the others and decentralised products, and we are implementing it in a very different way from the other decentralised protocols out there. And we think that your space for a propitious walk is really, really large. If you look at the trading volume on the centralised solutions, like binance. It’s about you know, 2,000,000,024 hour trading volume, and that’s six times more than Bitcoin spot trading. So the 2 billion original volume is only for Bitcoin, you know. So that’s how large it is. And if you look at that number in the decentralised protocols available out there, there are not that many out there. And the trading volume is also not as high. So we believe that there is a large market that we could capture. And there’s also enough room for multiple designs, and other other protocols have different designs. And let’s see how we can work together in complementing that designs.

Jamie Burke 24:24
So you talked a little bit about this interoperability out of the gate. So as you mentioned, I mean naturally, it works with aetherium as it is, but you’ve also rolled out across by Nance, smart chain. So how do you see, well, firstly, are you looking at other environments like polka.or Cosmos? And then secondly, with something like binance Smart chain, how do you look at the relationship between what you’re building and by Nance and centralised exchange Just like Finance?

Tascha Punyaneramitdee 25:01
Hmm, good question. So yes, we have looked at the other chains definitely. And and, and the reason that we say we’re starting on by Nance much in aetherium. That’s because we’re not limiting to these two. So when we find fit, we’re definitely going to expand to other chains as well. And in terms of, you know, by Nance itself, we definitely see a lot of synergy that we can bring together. So first of all, the perpetual swap product that I mentioned, it’s going to be on both aetherium and by Nance mochi, right. And aetherium definitely, because there’s a huge, you know, DeFi demand right there. And at the same time on by Nance machine, there’s a huge group of traders who are already trading on by Nance and if they are looking for decentralised version, then they can find that version on by Nance machine very easily. So there will still be in the finance ecosystem, and still be able to use their propitious well be it on centralised or decentralised version. And you know, down the line, there are a number of ways that we are looking to work with with by Nance and also the other centralised exchanges to really much bridge and onboard those users who are using centralised exchanges. whenever they’re ready to come to DeFi, then we would be helping them to bridge to defy. So that’s pretty much down the line of our goal. And that’s why we want to start making relationships and and helping them helping by Nance to grow BSc right now, so that when that adoption from sci fi users come in, then we will be ready to help them.

Jamie Burke 26:51
Yeah, and I think this is this is really interesting debate in DeFi, generally now about where adoption comes from where the demand comes from, as you said, there’s like almost an oversupply. And so on the one hand, you have centralised exchanges, like finance, on the other hand, you have a bank like sab and maybe somewhere in the middle, you have some FinTech startups. I mean, I could imagine that all three of those could be seen as a distribution channel for the product, the DeFi products that you create, and gateways to kind of bring new demand into the system. So as a mean, young organisation, in terms of you know, relative size and maturity, how do you how do you engage? Well, firstly, strategically, how do you see DC these decent distribution channels? And how do you then engage with them and like an engagement, for example, with the more extreme end of the spectrum, banking institution and Thailand, like as a startup that’s that can be very demanding from from a time perspective from a resource perspective. So So I two questions there. So strategically, how do you look at that spectrum of institutional organisations? Do you see them as a distribution channel? And then second question, how do you prioritise and engage with each of those as an early startup

Tascha Punyaneramitdee 28:25
distribution channel, you can think of, you know, multiple ways of what you distribute. So let’s say with binance, what we’re what we’re really helping to to drive is not only expanding DeFi beyond aetherium, and as a result, bring more users Be it by Nance users, but other retail users who want to enter into DeFi, but aetherium gas fees too high or be you know, by Nance users from centralised exchange that are trading on by Nance already, but now they are exposed to DeFi on BSc. So if you look from finance perspective, there are a number of ways that we can distribute to to this ecosystem or add value to this ecosystem. Number one pretty much is to build on vse so that when these demand come in, we would be able to capture and pretty much help grow DeFi on this chain. And at the end of the day, we are you know here for the long run. And hopefully we are also going to bridge multiple products and in multiple chains so that we could help drive this interoperability for DeFi. In the beginning, it might be just on the asset level. For instance, if your assets on aetherium can be you know, part two port to BSc and then cross over and and use the different products on to ecosystem very easily. But later on, we really To drive the connection beyond his token transfer. So so that would take a bit more time, but we are eyeing on that as well.

Jamie Burke 30:08
And just on that point, that search interrupt on that, on that point, do you see the things that you’ll be building in the labs as as a standalone product, and or a feature that could then be enabled on the by Nance exchange as a consequence of your integration into the chain.

Tascha Punyaneramitdee 30:30
Um, there are multiple things. So number one, depending on the product itself, product nature itself, sometimes it would make sense to only be on aetherium, for instance, of humara, right now, as of right now, because we’re building on uniswap. So it is on aetherium. But at the end of the day, we are not limiting to aetherium. And if there are a number of uniforming pools that are very attractive on BSE, and we add, we evaluate the risks and it makes sense, then definitely, we’re going to deploy alpha humara on vsee, to to capture another demand segment. So that’s one point. The second point is that some of the products would make sense on both chains. And if they are going to be on both chains, then there may be some features that will make sense to add on BSc because of the cheaper gas and the faster transaction processing time. So let’s say with the perpetual swap product, when we launch on aetherium. And by Nance matching, then we’re gonna see how we can, you know, optimise the features of the mitre user experience to the maximum given what we are, you know, given the with, given the different blockchain that we’re working on. So one example can be, you know, with binance machine being faster, and cheaper gas, perhaps we can enable the leverage to be higher. So that’s just one example in terms of, you know, how we are thinking of deploying different products and having different products to work together.

Jamie Burke 32:10
Great. And then the other end of the spectrum, which is, you know, this engagement that you have with SAP 10 x. So, how do you see that relationship? And I know offer, you mentioned this, this kind of feedback loop? There’s kind of some shared learning. Yeah, how do you understand that relationship? And how do you hope it evolves?

Tascha Punyaneramitdee 32:36
A number of ways. Number one, pretty much, if you think of it in terms of the really long term, right? How we are how we are going to drive mass adoption would definitely come from education. And education comes from first you know, the heart of, of the institutions who can make the change. And pretty much that’s the bank. And this is the venture arm SP index is the venture arm of the bank, they are very interested in DeFi. And by working with us, they are able to adapt a number of different things and see how they can push forward the regulation so that they could do multiple projects, for example, they are trying to work on the stable coin project right now, with new learnings and insights that they get from us, perhaps they can have multiple data points, multiple angles, that they can help and push the regular regulations to, to be more friendly on that front. So that’s pretty much in your number one under education, and really the long term perspective. And in terms of, you know, the mid term and near term perspective, they are also and we are also getting a lot of pretty much working together and shared the development resources. So we can build more alpha products that not only take into account the DeFi landscape, but also take into account the information and insights that financial services people and we’re pretty much the the resources that have spent years in the financial services, so that they can bring in those insights and help us to be product that are more insightful and pretty much expand the fi landscape further as well. And at the end of the day, you know, it’s really much on on who can innovate faster and in terms of innovation itself is definitely not just going to come from ourselves are not just going to come from other defy protocols. But I think it’s also important to expand to the traditional finance as they have years of experience in the traditional finance services and see what we can apply from them.

Jamie Burke 34:47
Yeah, fascinating. So I’m gonna be interested to know how the engagement happened with SAP I believe that’s just for clarification part of the Siam commercial bank. So, you know, clearly you mentioned earlier Word risk. And I think most people in DeFi appreciate the risk that’s involved through largely the composability. But of course, it has a number of different vectors. How do you convince an institution, especially one that is, you know, regulated retail bank to firstly appreciate, and then get comfortable with the level of risk in DeFi. Now, and then presumably, I guess overcome concerns that by by them introducing that risk into the wider economic system, you know, the problems that might come with that.

Tascha Punyaneramitdee 35:43
Mm hmm. So, well, first of all, SCB kanex is in new to DeFi is a new to crypto, they invested in ripple, they also invested in block phi, which is the lending protocol. So they have expressed interest in DeFi for a long time. And they also have been trying to push out the stable coin project here in Thailand. So they’re working pretty closely with the regulatory segment on that. So, you know, we as in our finance lab, have been in the space and have been talking to sp 10 x about different angles that we can help push defy adoption further. So pretty much that’s how the partnership came about, because we really want to help expand the DeFi landscape, you know, in Thailand, or even in Asia and beyond. But in terms of risks itself, I believe that there are, you know, definitely if users are using DeFi products, now, there are definitely going to be a number of risks that they have to be mindful of. But in terms of the institutional players, and an onboarding, retail to DeFi, I believe that’s going to take a long time. And that’s going to also enter from the least risky products. So for instance, in terms of, you know, lending product, as opposed to you find me, right, because with you farming, you also have to educate people on impermanent loss on multiple things as well. But from lending aspects, I think that’s something that if we see adoption from Thailand, and if we see adoption from as an in developing countries, I think that will come from lending, which is more on the least risky side. But at the end of the day, there will also be, you know, smart contract risks, and other attacks that we have to prevent. And that’s why we have a really strong team of researchers and engineers to work on that pretty much to mitigate those risks. So just to give, you know, some of the data points, our CTO, Nippon, he got for like gold medals, and one silver medal from international Mathematical Olympiad. And he’s really strong on the quantum science part, and really the one behind different parameters that we set different pools that we add on alpha humara. So that there is you know, high mitigation of attacks, high mitigation of risk, and pretty much make it more friendly to to new DeFi users.

Jamie Burke 38:27
So, you know, as somebody that’s rapidly pushing out this this attack, and but as you say, trying to do it in a very concerted way. You mentioned, it could be years before we see retail adoption, I mean, by that, do you mean a decade? Plus,

Tascha Punyaneramitdee 38:44
I wish I could answer because I would time the product in a timely manner. But at the end of the day, I think you cannot compare DeFi timeline in in traditional timeline, as well, as, as we all know, one month in DeFi can mean a number of months or even a year in several industries. Right. So I think it definitely depends on the landscape, on the Indy fi, and see what are the things that we can help push forward? But yeah, I think it’s gonna be a while but cannot say at all, you know, how many months how many years from now?

Jamie Burke 39:26
Understand, understand, so, maybe just zoom out? What do you think somebody’s deep in the weeds? In DeFi? What do you think’s missing, you know, for you to enable you to be able to deploy the products that you want to deploy with the level of say security that you’d like. Because obviously, you’re you can only be as good as the infrastructure that you’re, you’re building on. And of course, this is still very nascent. So what what do you think’s missing? What do you think of the low hanging fruit or the kind of critical bits of infrastructure that need to be sold for for you to be able to fully realise your goals?

Tascha Punyaneramitdee 40:08
Yeah, I think there are multiple things definitely. Number one, I think what we’re really missing is a number of firms for economic audit, as you have seen, there are, if you, if you look at the technical audit itself, there are not that many to begin with that, that deliver very good audit results and very thorough results. And, and that’s already technical audit, right. And if you look at economic audit, there’s pretty much none, because it’s really difficult for for anyone to also read the code and imply the economic attack from it. So if you look from harvest finance attack, which happened last week, you know, the code was working just fine. But the attack came from economic audit. And I think as DeFi grows, capturing more total value logs and real money in their economic audit will be so important going forward. So you know, if any firm can start doing that, I think that they can, they can bring a lot of value and also capture a lot of value themselves. The second point is, is also how there are, how there can be a number of ways that help bridge multiple block chains or multiple layer twos together. So what I’d like to see, you know, later on is pretty much that the five protocols don’t have to choose which blockchain they have to be in. Because right now, what I’m seeing is that a number of protocols and other products have to choose if they are choosing composability, hence, aetherium, or, you know, low gas fee, and no composability on other chains. So there are some choices that they have to make. But I think the longer term, what would be really nice is pretty much that anyone can build on any team that they find fit, depending on their product, and still be able to compose and build off of each other. And that’s pretty much we would see a real, like cross chain DeFi ecosystem. But there are no tools or no, you know, available infrastructure for us to move towards that face yet, but I’m pretty sure a lot of people are coming up with different ways to how to make that happen, because it’s not that easy. And different blockchains have different pros and cons. So so people have to be mindful off.

Jamie Burke 42:45
So of course, you know, DeFi is already proven, it’s quite easy to bootstrap liquidity into a network. I mean, you mentioned you had several million very quickly within your first product. And the the kind of problem, and of course, you know, that can create quite promiscuous behaviour from from users, how do you look at kind of closing the loyalty loop to create stickiness around a product which, or in a in a in a sector, which is incredibly promiscuous?

Tascha Punyaneramitdee 43:19
Mm hmm. So, if you provide, if your product provide unique value proposition that users cannot find elsewhere, then they’re going to come back. So like a humara, you can get the highest lending rate on ease. So that’s very clear, and there are a lot of ECE holders out there who don’t want to sell to make money from their eath So, they can supply to alpha humara and get interest rate on eath. And we actually have pretty high retention rate on alpha Amora.

Jamie Burke 43:50
And how do you achieve that, by the way, how do you achieve the highest interest rate?

Tascha Punyaneramitdee 43:54
Yeah, because on the borrow side, the smart contract does one thing it borrows for you. So you can use farm. So pretty much is different from other lending protocol for the lending for other lending protocol uses deposit to get interest rate right as the lender and if from the borrower side they borrow and then they find a way to to benefit and profit from that borrowed asset themselves. But for alpha humara the borrowers can actually go leverage on new funding. What that means is pretty much let’s say if they have hundred E’s, they can come in with hundred eath they can tell the smart contract and pradesh tell from the front end that they want to you find with 2.5 times so pretty much they are borrowing hundred and 50 more east. So in total there, you’d farming with 250 eath and they’re paying interest on that borrowed eath and as a result, the alpha Homura contract will you’d farm for them so the contract will automate A number of functionalities that otherwise users would have to do it themselves on multiple transactions pay multiple number of gas fees. And at the end of the day, the profit that they get, I mean, there are some risks as well. But the profit that they’re get is high and they are willing to pay for that time borrow interest rate generating high yields back to the lenders. So we innovate on the borrow side. So that there is you know, unique proposition not only on the borrower side, but also on the lending side.

Jamie Burke 45:34
Understood. Okay, great. Well, look, it’s a pleasure to have you on Tasha, I think anybody who launches a startup this year in 2020, and survives, it deserves an award. And actually, there’s a very good argument to say that if you were going to launch alpha, maybe 2020 would would be the year to do it, with everything that’s going on in the wider economy. So congratulations as we edge towards the end of your first year and it’s been a pleasure having you on the show.

Tascha Punyaneramitdee 46:05
Thank you, Jamie.

Jamie Burke 46:09
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